SPHE Teacher's Interview - What Happens in the Classroom... - Mod Note Added to OP PLEASE READ

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122833769#Comment_122833769

It does overlook the fact that there are parents who don’t share those values and views and their reasons have nothing whatsoever to do with the idea of being afraid that their children will develop a point of view different from their own. It absolutely has more to do with the fact that parents wish to have their children educated in views and values which are consistent with their own. Parents are already aware of the fact that their children have a right to attend a publicly funded school without having to participate in religious instruction, and the fact that parents have primary responsibility for their children’s education is the reason why parents have the right to refuse to allow their children to participate in SPHE / RSE activities too:

(2) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1), the Minister—

(e) shall not require any student to attend instruction in any subject which is contrary to the conscience of the parent of the student or in the case of a student who has reached the age of 18 years, the student.

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1998/act/51/section/30/enacted/en/html

What happens in Catholic schools is no different than what happens in any other type of school - the Board of Management has a legal obligation to uphold the ethos of the school, and that’s why, while you advocate for an idealised scenario of a safe space for some students (supported by the idea that their home may not be a safe space, cos that’s always a good idea to weaponise children against their parents in furtherance of one’s own interests, worked out well in the past ‘n’ all!), it doesn’t exist because each school has the right to decide how and when the curriculum should be delivered, and the course content that is or isn’t included.

That’s why there’s less of an opt-out in Catholic schools from SPHE - because the content that you would prefer is taught, isn’t, and certainly not in the way you would wish it to be taught as is done in an ET school in accordance with the ET educational philosophy… well, most of ‘em anyway, and I know it’s a primary school and this discussion is in relation to the secondary school Junior Cycle curriculum, but I think you’ll get the point:

https://archive.ph/3cx7h

That’s why I don’t see your idea of simply telling anyone to get over it being taken even remotely seriously, because it’s not as though in reality those are actually anyone’s only options - to either accept something or get over it. Were that ever a reality, the circumstances where you were able to enrol your children in a school which supports your educational philosophy just wouldn’t exist, and as it stands they are still limited to functioning like hedge schools for the most part being relegated to temporary premises and given little resources:

https://www.educatetogether.ie/news/new-school-year-2019/

I wouldn’t encourage anyone to simply accept treatment that they believe is unfair, much less would I be so arrogant as to simply tell anyone get over it as though anyone should simply accept a situation in which they are being treated unfairly. If parents choose to enrol their children in a school in which they do not wish for their children to participate in SPHE / RSE, it doesn’t mean they’re afraid their children will develop a different point of view from their own, it simply means the views or values of the school are not consistent with their own views or values. What they do after that is still their own business and like I said, it’s an understandable assumption that they are afraid of their children developing a point of view different from their own, coming from someone whose point of view does differ, but at least you didn’t go so far as to suggest it was an ‘abusers charter’, as in how far down the rabbit hole does one have to be to come up with that one? That one definitely raised an eyebrow 😂

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122835269#Comment_122835269

TL;DR

1800_Ladladlad

I don't know who it was asking for examples of kids being encouraged to be not straight or something along those lines, I was reading briefly but here are two i can think off the top of my head.

There are BelongTo Education and Training Managers teaching in schools how it’s seen as “cool” to be “gay” or “non-binary”, and being “straight” is seen as “boring” or “negative”

https://gript.ie/being-straight-seen-as-negative-in-some-irish-schools-belongto-staffer/

A Lesbian activist, Annaig Birdy talks of her time attending youth meetings hosted by BelongTo in the Office of the Ombudsman for Children which children aged between 14 and 23 years old attended. She raised concerns about social pressures put on teenagers and young adults to declare themselves trans or non-binary and that the atmosphere at the meetings encouraged young lesbians to declare themselves non-binary or trans so they would be accepted by the group.

Whenever Birdy or any other lesbian mentioned they believed lesbians do not have romantic or sexual relations with transgender women they were "aggressively shouted down” by people in the group which could be anywhere in between 30 and 50 people attending, and there was no intervention from the youth workers.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/lesbian-activist-raises-concerns-about-belong-to-youth-meetings/a319171930.html

When being straight is seen as a negative and it's being taught in classrooms to people as young as 13 by the same people socially pressuring children who are at an impressionable and vulnerable age. No. Things are far beyond the threshold of acceptable. Especially when they're going on about “white privilege,” “male privilege,” and urging Irish children to recognize their “privileged status” as a “white, male or Irish person,” on top of all of the above.

All of this is yet another case where the minority's feelings are more important than children.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122836040#Comment_122836040

Gript? Yeah, but no.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122835768#Comment_122835768

Catholic schools are the best

Educate Together are like hedge schools.

🙄

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122836445#Comment_122836445

If you’re going to provide a summary, the least you could do is provide an accurate summary.

Ezoul was making the point that parents who don’t support the new SPHE / RSE curriculum are afraid that their children will develop a point of view that’s different from their own, and while that’s an understandable assumption from her perspective, it’s not even remotely accurate, for the various reasons I outlined.

My comment in relation to ET schools being akin to hedge schools was in relation to the fact that they are still (some 40 years after the establishment of ET), often relegated to temporary premises, and if one were to simply as Ezoul suggests - accept the situation (as it was then before the establishment of ET), or get over it, as if those are people’s only two options, they wouldn’t exist at all.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122833827#Comment_122833827

You missed out one important bit ;

Some people are transgender. Be sound with them.

You'd have no problem with that, presumably?

Hamsterchops

Regarding our children having a different viewpoint from ourselves. We believe there are two sexes & two genders, male & female, man & woman. A controversial & old fashioned viewpoint to hold nowadays I know, but that's what we believe. We also believe most people are heterosexual for reproductive reasons, and some people aren't, them being same sex attracted gay & lesbian people. The kids know all this, having learnt the basics in primary school plus asking questions of ourselves, nothing remarkable or out of place.

New SPHE books in 1st year / secondary school, then we get a whole other dimension that has never been taught to children before, hence a reaction from us parents. Sex is now on a spectrum, there are three main sexes & over seventy two genders with a new option called non-binary. Girls can now socially transition to become boys & boys can identify as girls. If a student identifies as the opposite gender then this must be affirmed by teachers & students. New words, new language, new concepts (born in the wrong body etc) and meanings to something that was so straightforward.

That's the way we view it anyway, and it's it's not easy for us to understand or come to terms with.

Hamsterchops

… forgot to mention how pronouns have changed too. They/them, zee zem etc.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122837231#Comment_122837231

Surely people learn new things everyday?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122837231#Comment_122837231

Does your personal belief system rule out the existence of transgender people?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122836040#Comment_122836040

Yeah, no, I'm not going to click a Grift link.

But regardless, as you describe the story, the protagonist basically seems upset that most people in the room had different opinions to her. She confirms that those opinions were coming from attendees, rather than from the leaders of the session in the room.

So the story, exaggerated and all as it is, doesn't make the point you think it makes.

Hamsterchops

Adults can identify as anything they like as long as it doesn't impinge on other sections of society. Lets stick with SPHE and what children are taught in school.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122837391#Comment_122837391

The first question is to whether it's reasonable to mention the existence of transgender people as part of SPHE. You seem to think that it's not reasonable to mention the existence of transgender people as part of SPHE - is that correct?

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122837391#Comment_122837391

And the exact same arguments were made to avoid mentioning homosexuality in the classroom. Transgender people exist, pretending they don't is only an effort to ostracize them.

Hamsterchops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122837398#Comment_122837398

Multiple genders according to the SPHE book, your favourite being one of them + seventy more genders too, if you believe in it. We grew up with two genders and two sexes. I referenced same sex attractions in #279.

You forgot bisexual? That's the "B" in LGBTQ.

Unless you want that erased from "the book" as well as the "T" and any reference to gender diversity.

This thread continues to deliver proof of exactly why this information needs to be available as part of the SPHE course.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122837415#Comment_122837415

You're being remarkably reluctant to answer a straight question, presumably because you realise that your honest answer doesn't stand up.

Hamsterchops

Stick with SPHE and what's what's being taught to kids in school, or get banned. Even worse have this thread shut down. SEE POST #249.

Mod Edit: Warned for backseat moderation

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122837483#Comment_122837483

Did you just assume the questions sexuality?

Jack Daw

Sex education in schools should be about teaching the biological aspects of it, contraception and lessons about consent ( i.e how they can spot if they are being taken advantage of)

Anything outside of this should be up.to patrents to do themselves, it isn't up to schools to impose their morals or belief systems on children

They shouldn't be teaching anything about this 72 genders crap as it's complete gobbledegook .There are 2 genders in real terms anything other than that is just a personality trait

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122837391#Comment_122837391

Adults can identify as anything they like as long as it doesn't impinge on other sections of society.

That stipulation isn’t on the SPHE curriculum?

Lets stick with SPHE and what children are taught in school.

What’s on the SPHE curriculum then is this:

Gender: Refers to the social and cultural factors influencing what it means to be male and female. i.e. the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women. It is important to distinguish gender from 'sex' which refers to the biological and physiological physiological characteristics that are defined as being male and female (see definition of sex below).

Sex: refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that are defined as being male and female. When children are born, their sex is largely decided or 'assigned' on the basis of their external genitalia, which generally - but not always - reflects their internal hormonal and chromosomal make-up.

What children are taught in school will depend upon the school those children are attending, enrolled in the school by their parents, and what they are taught in school in relation to SPHE / RSE will depend entirely upon the ethos of the school, ie - it is the school which decides how the curriculum is delivered, and that varies considerably between schools. However, ultimately it is the children’s parents who will decide what their children are taught in class, as it will still be the right of parents to withdraw their children from any particular school activities which are in conflict with their own values and/or world views.

Rest of what’s actually on the curriculum is here:

https://www.curriculumonline.ie/getmedia/ca8f8975-50ca-4dc3-bba5-a04e25b4f978/JC_SPHE_Short_Course_2023.pdf

This is why the article in the opening post amounts to scaremongering nonsense, as does the idea that parents who do not subscribe to a particular social, political or educational philosophy should be regarded as an indication that they are abusing their own children.

There’s a lot more to the SPHE curriculum than just the main focus of the discussion on here, which is largely irrelevant in an Irish context in any case due to the fact that unlike schools in the UK and the US, the Patronage system here means that students in secondary education will be taught SPHE / RSE in accordance with the school patrons ethos, a position which some politicians have attempted to get around by introducing new legislation, whose attempts thus far at least, have proven unsuccessful:

An Act to guarantee the right of students to receive factual and objective relationships and sexuality education without regard to the characteristic spirit of the school.

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/bill/2018/34/eng/initiated/b3418d.pdf

An Act to amend the Education Act 1998 (as amended) to make provision for the implementation of relationship and sexuality education in primary and post-primary schools without any influence of religious ethos on relationship and sexuality education; and to provide for related matters.

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/bill/2022/108/eng/initiated/b10822s.pdf

Hamsterchops

Jack Daw summed it up nicely above the long-winded one. SPHE should teach / Two genders, two sexes …

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122837561#Comment_122837561

We've also had posters who don't think being gay should be talked about. Given the fact that coming to terms with one's sexuality or even gender is an emotionally fraught scenario, it should absolutely be talked about.

Hamsterchops

You really want to have a spat with me re Transgenderism, and I refuse to get into a tit for tat exchange, because if I do I'll only get banned, again 🚫

We all got a warning from the Mod.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122837684#Comment_122837684

Except for the fact that Jack Daw’s summary is based entirely upon their own opinion, and not remotely reflective of the reality of the education system in Ireland, where the purpose of schools is absolutely to impose their morals or belief systems on children, with the delivery of the national curriculum being the reason they receive public funding as part of the type of education services that they provide to parents.

In Ireland it’s pretty much 50/50 in terms of denominational education vs multi-denominational education at secondary level which is what this particular SPHE curriculum relates to:

The number of students attending multi-denominational schools at post-primary level exceeded the numbers enrolled in Catholic schools for the first time during the current academic year.

Figures from the Department of Education showed there were 201,102 pupils attending multi-denominational schools across Ireland in September, representing 48.3pc of the total.

At the same time, there were 199,292 students in Catholic schools, accounting for 47.8pc of all enrolments at secondary level.

Multi-denominational schools in Ireland outnumbered Catholic secondary schools for the first time in 2018 but until now, enrolments in Catholic schools had still remained higher.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/more-pupils-enrolled-in-multi-faith-secondary-schools-than-catholic-schools-for-first-time-ever/a783626298.html

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122837001#Comment_122837001

I'm not going to ignore a moderator instruction and discuss that - you are of course able to but I won't be.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122836732#Comment_122836732

It was a ridiculous, derogatory comparison.

New schools of all types often end up in temporary premises (although I'd like to know how a divested school did so) e.g. my kids' secondary is sharing the campus of another secondary. It's not prefabs though and to call any school a "hedge school" or akin to it is ridiculous. They get exactly the same funding as any other voluntary school (more FUD from you about 'resources')

ET being established 40 years ago has nothing to do with it. How long the patron body is established for is irrelevant. You think that if only they were around longer, they could snap their fingers and the DoE would come up with a new permanent building just like that? Clearly not so why mention it?

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122837561#Comment_122837561

"it isn't up to schools to impose their morals or belief systems on children"

How would a morality-free education work? No repercussions when you steal from your classmate, or thump them?

How would that work in relation to SPHE? It's OK to have unprotected sex if you want? That's not a "biological aspect" and consent isn't either. There'd be no need for SPHE if it was just about biology, JC science would cover it…

Is homosexuality just a "personality trait" too? Is it OK to mention homosexuality in SPHE?

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122838264#Comment_122838264

No, homosexuality is innate to the person - and in nature appearing in a couple of thousand species, around 150 i believe where they literally have to force themselves to mate with the opposite sex to keep the species going!

Bigots of all sides may not like same sex attraction (I know of one person who pushes their pronouns heavily has often opined "i can't wait till there is no more gay people" - and was immensely put out when I noted how horribly homophobic that was!!) but it is hard wired in and therefore scientific to my way of thinking.

Debating whether someone is gay is as unscientific as debating that someone has blue eyes or is left handed.