SPHE Teacher's Interview - What Happens in the Classroom... - Mod Note Added to OP PLEASE READ

Jack Daw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122838264#Comment_122838264

Homosexuality is a real thing though.

72 genders isn't, it's gibberish.I could make up my own specific gender identity tomorrow and using the logic of the unlimited genders people use there would be nothing they could do to say my newly made up gender was any less valid than any other gender.

Schools just need to teach kids the basics when it comes to sex education , the rest should be left up to parents.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122837779#Comment_122837779

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122837839#Comment_122837839

The mod instructions were to stick to the SPHE curriculum, which is exactly the question that I'm asking and you're both evading.

The question remains - should there be any mention of transgender people within the SPHE curriculum?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122838320#Comment_122838320

Transgender people are a real thing. Are you afraid of some negative outcome if they are mentioned in the SPHE curriculum?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122838171#Comment_122838171

It was a ridiculous, derogatory comparison.

It wasn’t though, considering the context in which the comparison was made, and not for the first time either, which suggests two things - either you’re not familiar with Irish history (that’s unlikely), or you chose to take offence where none was intended and mangled the point to come up with your own interpretation (seems far more likely):

Historians agree that the hedge schools provided education, occasionally at a very high level, for up to 400,000 students by the mid-1820s. J. R. R. Adams says the hedge schools testified “to the strong desire of ordinary Irish people to see their children receive some sort of education”. Antonia McManus argues that there “can be little doubt that Irish parents set a high value on a hedge school education and made enormous sacrifices to secure it for their children....[the hedge schoolteacher was] one of their own”.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedge_school

https://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/09/18/educate-together-in-a-modern-day-hedge-school/

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30946592.html

Unfortunately none of the twelve new schools opening this year will open in their permanent accommodation. This is has become a systemic problem, impacting on almost every newly opening school in Ireland. Many of the schools which Educate Together has opened in the last decade remain in temporary accommodation, awaiting the delivery of permanent solutions. The result is unnecessary and increased pressure on school management and a waste of public funds. 

https://www.educatetogether.ie/news/new-school-year-2019/

There was no FUD about resources either, the fact is that ET schools are poorly resourced and funded by the State, which is why I made the point about their being established as a patron body 40 years ago, because they should be receiving greater funding than schools which are already well established. That was the whole point about being fair and that parents shouldn’t have to simply accept what they view as being treated unfairly and just get over it.

That’s why I made the point that I wouldn’t be so arrogant as to encourage anyone to engage in that sort of behaviour, nor do I believe that anyone should just accept being treated unfairly, and I didn’t require a new SPHE curriculum to learn that much, it’s just basic manners for most people.

Jack Daw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122838360#Comment_122838360

I never said they weren't.

The fact that transgender people only switch to one of the 2 genders that exists in reality shows you that the 72/unlimited genders idea is complete nonsense.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122838375#Comment_122838375

SO you're OK with mentioning the existence of transgender people in the SPHE curriculum then?

Sexuality (or sexual orientation if you prefer) is not biological either, or limited to just heterosexual and homosexual.

Should the differences in sexual orientation outside of these two also be excluded from the SPHE course, because some parents don't believe other sexualities exist?

Quite honestly, i think some posters here could benefit from taking the course themselves!

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122838410#Comment_122838410

Sexuality (or sexual orientation if you prefer) is not biological either…

Quite honestly, i think some posters here could benefit from taking the course themselves!

The SPHE curriculum for the Junior Cycle doesn’t go into that level of depth (it barely scratches the surface, which is appropriate for students at Junior Cycle level in education as it’s just an introduction to the various topics covered), so it wouldn’t be of any use in that regard.

As an aside though:

Multiple layers of evidence confirm that sexual orientation and gender identity are as biological, innate and immutable as the other traits conferred during that critical time in gestation.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S009082581731510X

Hamsterchops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122838360#Comment_122838360

So when my kids come home after their SPHE class asking my my opinion about transgender people I could reference famous examples as Pips Bunce & Eddie Izzard, Lea Thomas, Blair Fleming & Dylan Mulvaney, all self identified as transgender. Make of them what you will but it is difficult to explain what it is other than an expression of wanting to be the opposite sex. Bearing in mind this is all new to many parents, only becoming a major topic within the last last five to ten years, and as regards my kids, well the whole SPHE transgender juggernaut just appeared in September this year !!

It's really new for us as you can see.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122838491#Comment_122838491

You're preaching to the choir, here.

The updated Senior Cycle SPHE curriculum will most likely cover this area in greater detail.

And as always,

If someone wants to withdraw their child, that is their business and their call to make. My personal opinion is that doing so does a disservice to the child, who at some point in their lives will encounter and be expected to interact with all types of LGBTQ people in a respectful manner (e.g. in college or in their future workplaces).

Just because some parents don't believe or approve of this area being taught or talked about in school, doesn't mean they should be allowed to dictate what can be taught or talked about to anyone else's children.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122838534#Comment_122838534

That's all the more reason for making sure that transgender people DO get mentioned in SPHE.

If parents need additional support, then they could arrange additional evening sessions for parents, as they used to do for the oul churchy sex ed stuff in primary school.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122838534#Comment_122838534

Honestly, you're sounding a lot more confused than the average child or teen would be tbh. There's already transgender students in schools, pretending they don't exist when they categorically do exist is just an effort to ostracize a group. If as you say some parents aren't equipped enough to explain it to their children, that's a pretty good reason for it to be discussed in SPHE classes.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122838353#Comment_122838353

.

Mod Edit: Warning issued for transphobia and deliberate misgendering

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122838594#Comment_122838594

No, this is your own personal opinion that a person can't be born into the wrong biological body. Psychology doesn't agree with your opinion on it.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122838594#Comment_122838594

It would be much better parenting to explain to your children that whilst some people so deeply believe in old fashioned sex based stereotypes such as women wearing dresses and make up that they call this "gender" and consider themselves to be part of that sex group.

This belief is valid to them and should be respected - as a belief. Not a fact.

However a great parent would then remind their child that they are free to dress however they want, and it doesn't change who they are inside - a man can express himself through make up and clothes and have a "feminine side" and we girls can be as tomboyish as we want, we're still women.

Kids being taught that they are one of dozens of created genders is divisive and unhelpful to them - bring them up to believe whatever they are or feel they are is "right" and they are loved and let them live their lives - like we used to to 40 years ago.

Vote4Squirrels

Regarding Eddie Izzard - his attitude when he started was amazing, when he was told he wore women's clothes he went "no they're not, I'm a man and I bought them so they're mine!"

I once saw him on the way to Wembley Stadium in a Crystal Palace top, pencil skirt, tights and heels - looking fierce and giving zero fcks - rarely have i admired anyone more!! It is a shame the ideologues got to him :(

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122838548#Comment_122838548

The rest of it is minor niggle stuff (as in one of the main points to come out of the research in drafting the JC curriculum is that SPHE / RSE is too focused on biology, so I don’t imagine there will be any greater emphasis on biology in the SC curriculum either tbh), but on this point:

Just because some parents don't believe or approve of this area being taught or talked about in school, doesn't mean they should be allowed to dictate what can be taught or talked about to anyone else's children.

That’s exactly what it means, and everyone is entitled to advocate for what they believe should or shouldn’t be taught to children in educational institutions receiving public funding. Anyone is allowed to dictate what should or shouldn’t be taught to children in that context, it’s how the SPHE curriculum was developed for one thing - through consultation with various stakeholders, including patrons, teachers, parents and students, and there was the public consultation process and so on.

Whether anyone takes them seriously or not, is another matter entirely - that’ll depend entirely upon the circumstances involved, such as what happened in the school in Castleknock where a group of parents did protest against the schools policy of employing an outside agency whose values were completely different from their own, and successfully managed to make the point that’s not what they sent their children to that school in particular for, and they shouldn’t have to withdraw their children from school either. Most schools and teachers are well used to dealing with these issues before they get to that level, they’re able to use their professional judgment, and then there are the tiny number of employees who imagine their employer and everyone else is in the wrong, and we know what happened in the case of an employee of Wilson’s Hospital school who… went off the reservation, so to speak 😬 Because they disagreed with the ethos of the school and tried to dictate their own rules…

http://www.wilsonshospitalschool.ie/page/Characteristic-Spirit-Ethos/12183/Index.html

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122838594#Comment_122838594

Being transgender is no more a mental illness than being gay is a mental illness. These are the same old tropes from the 80s and 90s being resurrected, because you happen to be personally uncomfortable with trans people.

Fortunately, with a little bit of factual education, the next generation will be a bit more enlightened and tolerant.

Is that what you're actually afraid of?

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122838712#Comment_122838712

Eddie Izzard referred to themselves as a lesbian trapped in a mans body 20 years ago and has been pretty consistent.

The fact that you seem to see walking into a football stadium in a football shirt looking fierce and giving zero **** is a masculine trait is instructive. What many trans people rail against, especially those who identify as genderfluid but also some who identify as the opposite to the birth gender, is the idea that certain behaviours are exclusive to a particular gender. Which I think is one of the things that drive people to identify as trans. Izzard it seems is now identifying less with the masculine traits and more with the feminine. This shift has seemed to coincide with the rise of a more toxic form of masculinity represented by the Andrew Tates' of this world. Maybe the true goal should be to separate sex from any behavioural traits altogether and just have it as a descriptor of your genetics.

Jack Daw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122838410#Comment_122838410

But there are only 2 sexuality aswell, Hetero and Homo , bi-sexual being a mix of the 2.

There are no other sexuality apart from those above that are based in reality as there are only 2 sexes therefore human beings can only be attracted to either 1 of the 2 or both of them.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122839139#Comment_122839139

Maybe the true goal should be to separate sex from any behavioural traits altogether and just have it as a descriptor of your genetics.

Sounds wonderful -

“We now have discrimination down to a science”

https://www.nature.com/articles/36250

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122839323#Comment_122839323

You only wrote two sentences, yet you managed to contradict yourself in both of them. Go, you!

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122839323#Comment_122839323

What about people who are attracted to, how do I put it..…say ladyboys in Thailand?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122839323#Comment_122839323

Bisexuality is not a mix of the two. 🤦‍♀️

If you really believe that it is, then it further proves that this REALLY needs to be taught in schools!

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122839605#Comment_122839605

Except that is exactly what it is - you're attracted to both sexes, end of.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122839672#Comment_122839672

There is more too it than that. For example,

A woman who identifies as bisexual and is in relationship with another woman, is still a bisexual - NOT a lesbian, and it is not a lesbian relationship.

A woman who identifies as bisexual and is in relationship with a man, is still a bisexual - NOT heterosexual, and it is not a heterosexual relationship.

And vice-versa.

Hopefully biphobia and bisexual erasure will also talked about as part of "relationships" under the SPHE course.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122839323#Comment_122839323

So eh, asexual people?

Jack Daw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122839739#Comment_122839739

That's a lack of sexuality.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122839787#Comment_122839787

So that's another type of sexuality that you failed to mention.

Jack Daw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122839605#Comment_122839605

So now you're fussing over semantics.

They still have to be either attracted to males or females not some gender that isn't either of them.