The case against average speed cameras

mikeecho

Cameras won't necessary be well advertised.

When the first GATSO cameras were installed we were told that there would be signage in advance of them, and there was.

But the requirement for signage was never put in law. Just like we were told that speed zones for GoSafe vans would be signed, again never put into law.

Now we have vans in unmarked zones.

Expect the same for any new enforcement techniques.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122820071#Comment_122820071

Don't speed, no problem then?

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122820087#Comment_122820087

True. Dont drink and you wont get a headache. Dont go out in the sun and you wont need sunscreen. Dont eat cabbage and you wont have flatuence, etc, etc

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122820183#Comment_122820183

Comp-lete BS and you know it, hopefully.

None of the above are breaking a law that is poorly enforced

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122820183#Comment_122820183

Alexa, show me a poor faith argument.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122660961#Comment_122660961

This makes absolutely no sense.

mikeecho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122820087#Comment_122820087

Don't cycle a bike

Don't walk on the road

You won't get knocked down.

Just because someone is going over the speed limit doesn't mean instant death.

A camera or 100 cameras won't be the silver bullet to ending road deaths.

Why haven't the GoSafe vans already solved this problem.

Why haven't the hundreds of speed cameras in the UK, Germany, Netherlands, Spain, France etc solved their road deaths.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122820622#Comment_122820622

I never said that speed cameras will remove all road deaths. But I do think that people who feel they can drive at 140/150 on a motorway are also the type who would do 90/100 on a country road. Cut out the top end speed and it'll surely filter down.

Plus, why have laws if we don't enforce them?

mikeecho

Speed cameras will cause speeding tickets to be contested, especially when someone is approaching 12 points.

Just like at the stick driving s49/s4 RTA.. the single most contested issue in traffic courts.

And ridiculous arguments and judgements made in what should be a black and white, open and shut case.

The whole RTA is a badly written act with more holes than Swiss cheese.

That's why laws aren't enforced, gardai know that they can't get a conviction for a lot of things.

Why bother.. just go for the simple stuff

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122821002#Comment_122821002

Speed cameras will cause speeding tickets to be contested, especially when someone is approaching 12 points.

Speed cameras don't cause speeding tickets or appeals. People getting caught speeding causes these!

mikeecho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122821005#Comment_122821005

Re read what I said

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122820622#Comment_122820622

They are reducing deaths, so indeed ARE part of the solving the problem.

https://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/2024/0410/1442258-rising-road-deaths-why-is-ireland-bucking-the-european-trend/#:~:text=There%27s%20no%20simple%20explanation%20for,layout%2C%20are%20all%20contributing%20factors.

mikeecho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122821235#Comment_122821235

So. What's changed ?

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122820535#Comment_122820535

No its just my response to people who get unhealthily aroused coming up with ideas to hound drivers, the vast majority of whom drive safely, especially on Motorways which are the safest roads in the country.

TBH I get the feeling drivers should just agree to install trackers in their cars combined with internal cameras that monitor every movement and display any undesirable activity (eg nose picking) on large screens in public places. I'm just wondering if that would even satisfy the lust🤣

Flinty997

Speed limits have been around since 1861. Kinda late to only grasping the concept now and being offended by it.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122819778#Comment_122819778

I based my comment on driving with cruise control at the speed limit on both motorways.

And your comment proves my point. In the Irish example you speed is set higher, but in the UK example it’s relatively higher to the speed limit. In your example you are speeding in the UK but not Ireland. lol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122819872#Comment_122819872

I think you’ve misunderstood something in my posts. Exceeding means driving faster than, ie speeding. Braking hard for speed cameras backs up what I said.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122660961#Comment_122660961

I’ve no doubt that YOU would do that. But anyone me with common sense would drive past laughing at the clown in the shoulder.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122822253#Comment_122822253

From experience UK drivers obey rules far more than Irish drivers. Perhaps because enforcement has always been far greater. Thats not mutually exclusive with some of them speeding.

And it's not having a misleading impression because our speed limits are different. Your looking at the speedometer you can see everyone's speed relative to your own.

Most with experience driving in Ireland know theres a lot of people driving over the limit. It's not imagination. There are studies and stats to back that up.

Flinty997

The lane changing in UK is on another level and not in a good way. It's one thing talk about the theory it's another to experience it.

SuperBowserWorld

Why the **** is everyone in a hurry ? Do they feel compromised or inadequate in some other aspect of their life ?

mikeecho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122822335#Comment_122822335

Cos cars go faster than bicycles

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122822301#Comment_122822301

I didn't dispute people drive over the speed limit in Ireland. As I said, you clearly misunderstood something I said. I'm not sure how, it wasn't complicated. I said it happens in the UK too, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen in ireland.

I also point out the different speedlimits can be misleading. Post above proved that by explaining that he drives over the UK speed limit but under the Irish one.

Drive from dublin to belfast on the M1. The speed limit drops from 120 to 112 at the border. some cars slow, many still boot along at 125-130. Other roads are the same.
If the average speed north of the border is 120, and the average speed south of the border is 125. They are slower, but still speeding by a relatively greater amount. That's what I refered to as misleading.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122825668#Comment_122825668

Drive from dublin to belfast on the M1. The speed limit drops from 120 to 112 at the border. some cars slow, many still boot along at 125-130. Other roads are the same.

If the average speed north of the border is 120, and the average speed south of the border is 125. They are slower, but still speeding by a relatively greater amount. That's what I refered to as misleading.

The A1 in NI is a really poor design with multiple open crossings, entrances and exits (even for private dwellings). You really can't compare the two roads.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122825740#Comment_122825740

It is definitely not to the same standard as the M1 in RoI. But surely that, and the fact people routinely do 120+ on it, only strengthens my point.

I also referenced above that the UK's threshold spec for top limit is lower than ours. If the A1 were in the republic it would be a 100km road at most, and only in parts.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122825668#Comment_122825668

So you think all those drivers (especially the NI plates) speeding on the M1 are just mislead by the border...

"..…notable top speeds included a motorist clocked at 228km/hr on the M1 in Balgatheran, Drogheda, Co Louth...."

"…PSNI Road Policing and Safety officers said they recorded a driver at a speed of 105mph on the M1 near Moira Saturday 21 September…"

"...Over the past 12 months, the highest speed detected by the PSNI in NI was 149mph on the M2 Foreshore in Belfast..."

IMO Drivers on the M1 or the North in general do not drive as they do in England, they aren't policed the same. You don't see them bunching for speed cameras or weaving like Ski Sunday back and forth to the left lane.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122825984#Comment_122825984

Where did I allude to anyone being misled? What does that even mean? The M1 was just an example.

I'm pointing out that they drive as much above above their speed limit, as we do above ours. In all the UK. I've explained this to you multiple times i've no clue what you are not getting.

I'm also not sure how a driver clocked at 238km/h on the M2 counters anything I've said. It's quite literally an example of insane speeding in the UK.

Flinty997

It's very simple.

Irish road safety is getting worst bucking the EU and UK trends.

Considering the resistance to average speed cameras on this thread.

MojoMaker

Agreed. Toxic driving more and more prevalent now, and previous regard for speed limits has ebbed away as the realisation of basic unenforcement filters through the population.

Drivers (like people in general) are more self-obsessed than they used to be, their self-importance prominently displayed in their desire to get everywhere quickly, even when not in a hurry.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122820071#Comment_122820071

I will go contra to the claims made by Gardai and say they shouldn't be well advertised. The most effective deterrent they will provide is if 2 months after they come into action, loads of people get fines, the worst offenders getting multiple. This will be far more effective than signage. A few stories of people getting fined for cameras across the country saying you couldn't possibly have covered within the speed limit will do wonders.

bladespin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122830324#Comment_122830324

Can only see that turning to ill will towards the gardai and any effort they're making, tbh speeding's not the problem anyway, it's attitude, as mentioned above the self importance and agression I'm seeing on the raod every day is ridiculous, it's like treating the symptom wtihout attacking the illness so to speak.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122830504#Comment_122830504

Why would it turn anything against the gardai, they won't be manning it, it will be a direction from the minister, their total involvement will be a letter head, not much more. It should hopefully free them up to do more important and effective things. The illness as you call it is endemic, it can't be cured, not by any way we have tried. What will cure it is, using your analogy, treat the symptom until it doesn't exist, the next generation the will never have seen Mamai or Daddy doing it, they will have seen them laugh at someone doing it for being stupid, and it becomes the norm, then the illness, just like a good vaccination program simply disappears.

FGR

I personally think that average speed cameras are a classic case of policing on the cheap and really enforces the stereotype of 'shooting fish in a barrel' - especially as they're being put on on motorways. Add to that the fact that the thresholds of the cameras are ridiculously low (circa 5%) and it really packs a punch in the gut.

Traffic policing numbers need to be boosted considerably - they're still a fraction of what they were during the boom. At least that way the genuinely dangerous roads can be policed in a way that a camera cannot.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122830946#Comment_122830946

If you get caught speeding then surely that should alter your behaviour on all roads though, not just motorways? And if you speed on motorways, you're likely to speed elsewhere too.

So catch them where it's easy and hopefully it'll improve behaviour elsewhere too?

Calahonda52

Enforcement and penalties are the solution, set a schedule of excesses: 50% over the limit roadside crusher

75% over limit as above plus mandatory jail sentence, with no bail prior to court case which should be next day as per riots in UK

arrested,treid and jailed all in 24hrs

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122830946#Comment_122830946

The shooting fish in a barrel is a stupid analogy used by loads of people. It would make sense if the fish knew that getting in the barrel would increase there chances of getting shot and that they had a choice not to get in the barrel, and then they chose to get in anyway.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122830946#Comment_122830946

It will catch habitual speeders.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122830946#Comment_122830946

One of the new stretches is on the N5 which is not a motorway, but is a blackspot for serious accidents.

Getting caught is great for getting drivers to try and not get caught again. Repeat offenders should get appearence before the Judge, and a higher fine.

bladespin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122830609#Comment_122830609

it's always on the gardai to enforce the laws, every summons has to be signed off and like it or not the gardai will be blamed, they've been targetting speeders since the 60s now, that hasn't worked too well, the methods change but the end result is the same ;) treating symptoms just doesn't work, I believe it can be cured, just need to look at things differently, the old tough justice thing is comical.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122834280#Comment_122834280

There is no tough justice, I know where the speed cameras set up in my local area, I know the time the local Garda car drives by as they start/end their shift. I haven't seen an actual Garda checkpoint since Covid times, twice in the last year, I have seen a Garda at a roundabout nearby with a speed gun, while possible to speed though out of rush hour, one was during rush hour and the other was while road works was ongoing.

There is no tough justice going on, there is barely minimum law enforcement. They need to remove the paperwork side of things for on the street Gardai so there is actually a presence on the roads.

bladespin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122834571#Comment_122834571

Wasn't referring to garda tough justice, just the posters seeking it and yes, I believe, the requirements on the gardai would puit them off doing anything, problem won't be solved by fines and points though.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122834692#Comment_122834692

Nothing in road safety policing has been as effective as fines in Ireland. This has decreased in recent years due to lack of enforcement. A network of interconnected speed cameras, with legislative updates so that it requires no Garda manpower is a no brainer. No one looks at a GoSafe van and thinks "f*cking Gardai" in my opinion and we will have to agree to disagree on that. The system could then also be helpful for identifying cloned plates etc and released to local stations where the plates were most closely scanned.

This said, if you have suggestions, I'd love to hear them but simply stating it won't achieve anything without giving alternatives, seems more in line with simply not liking them as you will have to slow down.

vavava voom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122692299#Comment_122692299

Does that not defeat the purpose of your speeding if you have to spend the time you “saved” idling at the end?

vavava voom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122731389#Comment_122731389

So could a person theoretically receive 9 FCPNs on a single stretch if they were speeding past all 9 cameras?

(3 penalty points + €160 fine)x 9 = 27 pps and €1440?

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122837032#Comment_122837032

Why not?

Seth Brundle

It would easily be appealed as multiple punishments for a single offence. The SPECS-type cameras work in unison so for someone to be punished for speeding between cameras A & B and also punished for speeding between B & C, etc would be unfair from a judicial perspective.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122837516#Comment_122837516

I worked with somebody years ago and her boyfriend got caught speeding twice on same day on same patch of road by same Garda. He got 2 offences, and I believe the 2nd was doubled because he had been caught earlier already.

Is this different?

Seth Brundle

I can recall where was a driver caught speeding on her way to work each day one week as they passed the newly inserted Gatso camera opposite the Spa Hotel (Lucan). If memory serves me, she was a learner driver at the time.

vavava voom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122837355#Comment_122837355

Because it’s the same offence.

I’m all for rigid enforcement but even North Korea probably doesn’t punish people twice or thrice for the same infringement.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122837032#Comment_122837032

Well, that is possible, and whether it is actually applied is a question for AGS.

I can assure you there are plenty of lawyers willing to act as defence lawyers for any wealthy driver prepared to pay to find the answer.

My opinion is that the fixed penalty route would not be used but a court case would be used to enable higher penalties.

dulpit

If you pass 2 separate speeding vans on the same day and get pinged by both, could you make the argument that you were speeding all the time, so it's only 1 offence instead of 2?