The case against average speed cameras

dulpit

Is there one? I was driving in the UK all week and encountered a bunch of average speed cameras (and static cameras too) and the volume of speeding on the roads was way way lower than it is here, with essentially no speeding in average speed camera zones.

So my question is - why don't we have them? The only argument against them I would subscribe though would be if they are used to track somebody's movements separate to them being used for speed enforcement (as in they could see that a certain car passed through a certain series of cameras and track somebody's movements that way), but assuming that was prevented, I'd be happy having the entire motorway network covered in these things.

I know that people will say that motorways are the safest place to drive, but you still see nutcases doing 150kph+ on the roads, and if the speed limits on the motorways were enforced then it's likely that when exiting motorways you are dropping from 120 to 100 and will actually stay there, rather than dropping from say 140 to 120/110 and be over the limit for N roads then.

Am I missing anything other than it prevents people from driving fast?

freddieot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058370811/the-case-against-average-speed-cameras

Why restrict it to just motorways ? They are the safest roads to drive on so why target them specifically ? That would unfairly target people in major urban areas that must use motorways very regularly compared to a driver that might be on one a handful of times per year.

Yes, I've also seen people doing 150+ but they never bother me. It's not something I'd recommend but everyone on a motorway is going in the same direction all the time so keeping to the left is a fairly safe strategy. It's a heck of a lot safer than doing 70 in a 50 or 100\ 110 in an 80 or 120 in a 100 zone which is a far bigger issue that I see every single day and those roads are also where the majority of accidents take place.

munster87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122660401#Comment_122660401

Would it just be a lot easier to put in place on long stretches of road? Too many people taking different exits off of roads to put in place in majority of alternatives to motorways?

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122660401#Comment_122660401

That would unfairly target people in major urban areas that must use motorways very regularly compared to a driver that might be on one a handful of times per year.

Speed cameras do not unfairly target anyone. The cameras only penalise people who speed.

KevRossi

If you're using cameras on motorways, then use them first to go after middle lane hoggers on the M50 and right lane hoggers on all 2 lane motorways. Use them along with a short, but intense public education project on it.

€1.3 billion spent upgrading the M50 a few years back and middle lane drivers have it ruined.

28064212

I'd imagine the main argument against them would be on a cost-benefit basis. How much would installing a system of average speed cameras cost? Could that money be better spent on other projects that would save more lives?

I'm not saying the answer to the latter question is "Yes", I'm saying there is a debate to be had there

freddieot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122660416#Comment_122660416

Easier for sure and a great revenue generator, although we all know it's never about money.

The reality is that many drivers (and I'm specifically meaning the 'nutcases' that the OP refers to..') that would slow down on the motorway stretches would be right back up to high throttle once they got off them and now with an increased vigour to make up for the time lost.

However, I really don't see the great difficulty on putting them on most major roads 80 \ 100 zones. I'm not suggesting every road in the country. Workable examples could be Killarney to Kenmare, Donegal to Letterkenny, Dublin City to Palmerstown etc. A camera reads your plate leaving Killarney for example and reads it again in Kenmare. You can turn off or take whatever shortcuts you want but if you arrive earlier than the maps say is possible then you get fined. The cost of implementation would quickly be paid back in fines IMO and the accident rate would plummet as should car insurance. Further fines would pay for more cameras and so forth.

However, that's my argument as to why motorways should not be the target and if the PTB want to solve a problem they should look elsewhere. Could it be a step too far also as regards a 1984ish approach against privacy ? I tend to believe it would be.

ednwireland

basically I doubt average speed cameras would work here except on short stretches it takes an hour + from donegal town to letterkenny and it's just under 50km. your going to spend a lot of money on average speed cameras and catch no-one.

freddieot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122660555#Comment_122660555

In that Donegal example, and it's just an example of a random stretch of road, you'll catch anyone doing more than the speed limits, unless everyone drives that stretch at or below the limit and I suspect that's not the case. I'd still say the cameras would pay for themselves in multiple such locations.

On the Dublin City to Palmerstown route, which I often use so can speak with some experience, I'd make an educated guess that 25% to 50% of all drivers are speeding at some point, unless it's rush hour naturally. That's on a 9km route.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122660434#Comment_122660434

Could you perhaps enlarge on what a middle lane hogger might be?

I am afraid I might be one tbh!

I use the middle lane all the time As you can overtake relatively easily if you need too and get over to an exit on the left easier....I try to match pace with the traffic in front so assume I don't really delay anyone unreasonably.......am I a hogger or is the lad that insists on driving at 75 when 100 is allowed?

Dr Turk Turkelton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122660608#Comment_122660608

I don't know the stretch from Dublin City to Palmerstown but if so many drivers are exceeding the speed limit on it (up to 50%) is there a chance that the speed limit is set too low and need to be changed?

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122660638#Comment_122660638

Don't worry about it so long as you're not speeding noone of consequence gives a shoite. Like a 40 ton truck doing 80kph in an 80kph zone is safe but a 1.5ton car doing 85kph is commiting genocide in some people's book, irrespective of what lane it's in

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122660638#Comment_122660638

Yes you are one.

You should always drive in the left most lane unless you are overtaking someone.

The criteria for staying in the middle or 3rd lane should be the same as if you were overtaking on a single lane carriageway, i.e. you wouldnt stay on the wrong side of the road for 60s to overtake a car ahead, so dont do it on the motorway either. Pull back in and overtake when needed.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122660638#Comment_122660638

Yes unfortunately, you should be in the left lane unless overtaking a car in it. Driving in the middle lane means all the traffic behind has to move to the outer lane to overtake.

tabby aspreme

There's an average speed camera in place near Birdhill on the motorway, I think it's on some kind of trial to see how it works

CalamariFritti

Sure why not give everyone a mandatory implant to record their whereabouts at all times? If you've nothing to hide there shouldn't be a problem, right?

Ultimately this is where we will end up if we keep going down that road I think.

Edit: Ok, maybe a bit over the top but at some point I think we have to ask ourselves how much all encompassing surveillance we can afford to trade for safety/security before we wake up in some black mirror type dystopia.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058370811/the-case-against-average-speed-cameras

I drive 150km/he on motorway and if they had average drive zones I would stop at the end for a few mins along with all the other speeders much like they do in the Asian countries.

The Davestator

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122660714#Comment_122660714

The M50 is too busy and has too many exits to apply the 'normal' rules of driving in the left IMO. I tow a caravan often and stay in the left and it really shows how many people dive bomb in, cant merge onto the M50 properly and lots of others issues.

The Davestator

The widespread speeding in the port tunnel stopped the day the average speed cameras were turned on.

Norrie Rugger Head

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122660638#Comment_122660638

Yes, you are. If I'm in the inside lane coming up behind you I now have to move over 2 lanes to legally overtake you and come back in 2 lanes afterwards.

Just stay left

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122660961#Comment_122660961

Stop at the end. Where? Just randomly stop on the motorway?

barneygumble99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122660961#Comment_122660961

would you not just do the speed limit for the duration of the average speed camera zone and then you wouldn’t have to pull in and stop (illegally) on a motorway??????

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122661015#Comment_122661015

On the hard shoulder. That's what they do in asian countries where average speed zones are prevalent. They bomb it then stop at the exit trap to lower the average before proceeding.

CalamariFritti

I'm not a friend of those cameras and while I believe you this may be happening elsewhere this sounds stupid tbh.

Go too fast for a while then stop to beat the camera?

Disobedience for the sake of it I suppose. 🤷‍♂️

mcburns07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122661032#Comment_122661032

This is such strange carry on 😂 why are they speeding if it’s not to get somewhere faster?

Norrie Rugger Head

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122661032#Comment_122661032

What's the **** point of that?

ollaetta

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122660835#Comment_122660835

Not a trial. It's there 3/4 years and fully operational.

peter4918

going live next week I think

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2024/08/19/speed-cameras-planned-to-reduce-accident-toll-on-mayo-bypass/

Sam Russell

The ave speed cameras need to more than just check speed.

They have the ability to read NPs and so can check tax, NCT and Ins for a start. They should be all linked so the Bird Hill one should be able to talk to others on the M7, so the average is not on a defined stretch but over the whole motorway. Arrive too early at the toll at Portlaoise - then trouble.

If they could identify the driver, then banned drivers would also be in trouble. Now insurance details are on the Garda database, the cars with a sole insured driver who was banned would have to explain who was driving.

But they should be used on urban roads as well. There are speed merchants on many urban roads that cause difficulties to pedestrians and cyclists.

But having over the limit drivers being caught 7 times in the one year says a lot about enforcement. Evidential breath test should mean instant ban. Failure to produce licence when stopped or attending caught should result in a fine, and further penalty points.

Dartz

They're basically a tax on not having cruise control.

Also… if you want to enjoy the port tunnel you have to crawl along halfway through it before booting it at max revs to share the open-throated song of the rotary engine.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122661000#Comment_122661000

Why is this a problem for you?

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122664472#Comment_122664472

The rules of the road?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122664472#Comment_122664472

The rules of the road are a problem for you, or a problem for moving over multiple lanes?

Norrie Rugger Head

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122664472#Comment_122664472

Having to move across several lanes is a problem for all drivers FFS. Having to cross several lanes for a single manoeuvre is far less safe than a single lane.

The rules of the road are drive to the left, simple as

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122664568#Comment_122664568

The rules of the road are drive to the left, simple as

...and yet many Irish motorists can't do something as simple as this on a motorway!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122660835#Comment_122660835

Trial is over. It works. I just put cruise control on at 119kmh. Job done.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122664568#Comment_122664568

Personally I have no problem with switching several lanes. I'm surprised so many do.

Norrie Rugger Head

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122664588#Comment_122664588

So rules of the road mean nothing to you?

Reducing a 3 lane road to 2 lanes mean nothing?

Forcing people, driving legally, to have to cross 4 lanes means nothing?

Hmmm. No wonder there's an entire sub, on reddit, for Irelandsshitedrivers

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122664594#Comment_122664594

Someone driving in the 2nd lanes does not stop me from passing them. Not entirely sure why it stops you. I can drive in any of the 3 lanes. None are closed.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122661032#Comment_122661032

Stupidest waste of time ever.

Not surprised in the least

Norrie Rugger Head

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122664604#Comment_122664604

What?

It does not stop me but I have to move across several high speed lanes to legally overtake.

You cannot drive in any lane as they, legally, are for specific purposes. Your left most lane (unless otherwise signalled) is the only driving lane. Any to the right of this are for overtaking only

JohnC.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122664604#Comment_122664604

You drive in one lane, on the left. the other 1 or 2 are overtaking lanes. As the name implies, they are for overtaking, not for standard driving. Perhaps you need to brush up on how to drive because you apparently don't know how.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122665270#Comment_122665270

While I was in England during the week you come across loads of signs on the motorway that say something like "don't hog the middle lane" which I thought was quite funny.

Lane discipline over there is much better than here though I have to say. So maybe the sign works.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122665017#Comment_122665017

Personally I don't "stop" driving to overtake.

I don't have a problem getting past someone on the middle lane. I dunno why yeah all do.

I simply asked what problem does it cause you, how does it stop you. As you say it doesn't.

mikeecho

FLINTY is just a trolling cyclist.

Ignore his silly comments.

Or maybe he's serious, and doesn't know how to road lanes and traffic lights work.

Most cyclists seem to be ignorant of traffic regulations.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122665311#Comment_122665311

You'll have noted in england they mostly move left. But the downside is constant changing of lanes. It's much more tiring to drive in the UK than here as a result.

But once you get into somewhere busy with lots of exits and entry lanes, close together like London Orbital motorways and such, and the M25 they tend not to move left. On those roads driver behaviour very similar to our M50.

Why people are complaining about middle lane hogging on a thread about average speed camera is interesting. Obviously it's connected with speeding in their head.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122665270#Comment_122665270

I'm not the one is saying you can't drive in a lane because it's closed due to other traffic being in it. If you want to overtake them overtake in the 3 lane, that's exactly why it's there.

Quite often on the M50 all 3 lanes are moving at the same speed so no one is overtaking or perhaps lane 1 is faster. Who is "driving" in what lane then.

Like I asked originally what problem does it cause you.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122665458#Comment_122665458

There's an irony in complaining about rules while breaking the forum rules to do so.

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22784983

People should consider why rules exists, are they universal and if not why not.

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/motoring-issues/middle-lane-hoggers/

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122664329#Comment_122664329

Which gen Rx7? Lol. ACC really useful for average speed camera indeed.

People still speed in the tunnel. I assume they aren't getting fined or don't care if they do.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122665467#Comment_122665467

Yep, I did notice that there was a lot more active driving needed on the motorways.

Norrie Rugger Head

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122665479#Comment_122665479

On a 2 lane motorway someone driving in the overtaking lane completely negates there being an overtaking lane.

On a 3 lane, other than forcing people to move across several lanes, you effectively reduce the 3 lane to a 2 lane forcing traffic to overtake in one outside lane. You end up with no traffic in lane 1, lane 2 taken up by idiots, and all other traffic forced into lane 3

Have you ever wondered why the N7 from Newbridge in is such a mess? Yeah, it's ignorant/selfish drivers like your fine self