The case against average speed cameras

StudentDad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122667807#Comment_122667807

These are an expensive (for the motorist) fact of life in Ireland. Nevermind the awful infrastructure in places, the brutal attitude of some drivers to their fellow road users and quality of driving in general. Instead of fixing those issues the govt. seems to think, 'great, we'll roll out these cameras all over the place, make a lot of money and solve the problem.' Yes, the govt. or rather, the private company that runs these cameras is making alot of money but it's just pissing off decent drivers and ignoring the problem of idiot drivers who shouldn't be on the road.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122667915#Comment_122667915

Decent drivers don’t speed, so why would they be pissed off,

StudentDad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122667920#Comment_122667920

You've never met the random allocation of speed zones then? The ones that drop dangerously from 100 to 50 to 30 within the space of the blink of an eye and a speed camera van camped just as the speed drops? That's just one example. No warning, literally a speed trap. The insane speed allocated to a random boreen in the arse end of Kerry and yet on a well maintained wide road in another part of the country the speed is ridiculously low? The fact that when you do try and adhere to these ridiculous speed limits you have someone in your boot trying to shunt you off the road? You've never encountered any of this on an Irish road?

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122667937#Comment_122667937

It doesn't happen that often. In fact what happens more often is speed vans on a stretch going from 80 to 100 catching people who put the boot down and go 110 as soon as they see a 100 sign because they think 110/120 is grand because shur the road is straight/it opens up.

Average speed cameras are known about, it should be no surprise to drivers as they don't rotate positions so no slamming on brakes, and because they cover a larger area it means it is more effective at stopping speeding.

If you want to stop people from driving up your backside when you are at the speed limit, you should be in favour of average speed cameras as they will deter this behaviour

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122667915#Comment_122667915

These are an expensive (for the motorist) fact of life in Ireland.

I haven't had points in years (15+ I think) so I'm not facing this expense. They are only an expense for those who choose to speed and get caught doing so.

Nevermind the awful infrastructure in places,

So you want to speed despite the infrastructre being awful

Instead of fixing those issues the govt. seems to think, 'great, we'll roll out these cameras all over the place, make a lot of money and solve the problem.' Yes, the govt. or rather, the private company that runs these cameras is making alot of money but it's just pissing off decent drivers and ignoring the problem of idiot drivers who shouldn't be on the road.

The best speed cameras will make no money.
As for pissing off decent drivers, would you grow up! If you don't want to pay the fine then you know what to do (and I'm saying that as someone who used to be a compulsive speeder).

StudentDad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122667964#Comment_122667964

I have no issue with reasonable, well sign posted speed limits. If you enter an area that has a warning that says, 'if you exceed the limit you will get a fine in the post.' That's fine. What irritates me is the illogical, patchwork of infrastructure and enforcement on Irish roads. Speed is not the main issue.

StudentDad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122667971#Comment_122667971

Speed cameras make no money? Very funny. No, I want the speed limits to be reasonable on all roads, for the conditions of that road. The fact that the sign on a boreen in Kerry says 80 or 100 is not reasonable. The fact that a well maintained road in another part of the country says 50,( when it really should be 100) with a camera van on it just smacks of being a revenue raising exercise.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122667937#Comment_122667937

You've never met the random allocation of speed zones then? The ones that drop dangerously from 100 to 50 to 30 within the space of the blink of an eye and a speed camera van camped just as the speed drops?

Can you show us an example of where the limit drops from 100 to 50 to 30 wihtin the blink of an eye?

Are you also unable to see the speed camera van. They're fairly easy to spot, in fairness!

The insane speed allocated to a random boreen in the arse end of Kerry and yet on a well maintained wide road in another part of the country the speed is ridiculously low?

The local & regional speed limit sign (RUS 041A) has been in effect since 2015 IIRC and aims to remove notion that 80km/h is a target. Do you have difficulty with this?

https://assets.gov.ie/34749/59cea27176234ae38ebe38d24d1b8082.pdf

The fact that when you do try and adhere to these ridiculous speed limits you have someone in your boot trying to shunt you off the road? You've never encountered any of this on an Irish road?

Are you driving at a speed suitable for the road and conditions or simply to suit the people behind you?

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122667986#Comment_122667986

The speed limit being wrong on a 'boreen in Kerry's does not justify speeding on other roads either lower limits.

The boreens will be getting their limits revised downwards next year as default speed limits changes are coming into effect soon.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122667986#Comment_122667986

Speed cameras make no money? Very funny.

I did not say that. I said that the best speed cameras make no money. Quite a difference but maybe reading comprehension is not a strong point of yours.

No, I want the speed limits to be reasonable on all roads, for the conditions of that road. The fact that the sign on a boreen in Kerry says 80 or 100 is not reasonable. The fact that a well maintained road in another part of the country says 50,( when it really should be 100) with a camera van on it just smacks of being a revenue raising exercise.

So we should have a speed limit sign every 100m on some roads? Don't be daft!
If the boreen says 80km/h then maybe ask Kerry Co Co to replace it with the more suitable RUS 041A sign.

Which road is 50km/h and should be 100km/h? Is there anything that you can think of that may justify why it was set at a 50km/h speed limit?

StudentDad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122668000#Comment_122668000

All well and good, with the nonsense I see on the road every day. I'm not holding my breath to see any improvement in the quality of driving.

StudentDad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122668017#Comment_122668017

Perhaps you could avoid the ad hominem attacks. There is nothing wrong with my comprehension, thanks.

csirl

The issue isnt speed cameras per say - nothing wrong with them. The big issue is the allocation of the road enforcement budget in a way that reduces road deaths. Is spending 10s of millions on cameras on a well designed, safe road where there have been no fatalities an effective allocation of resources versus e.g. enforcing speed limits and bad driving in accident black spots? Or would comcentrating on dangerous overtaking on non-dual carriageways reduce deaths more?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122668057#Comment_122668057

I think all of it is needed tbh.
You do need visual deterrents to remind people to stay within the speed limits and it has more of an effect to put these on businer roads than a back road that sees 20 cars per day.

However, we appear to have seen a massive reduction in on-road policing. Mobile phone use is rampant. Drug driving also is alleged to be at worrying levels. Yet, do you see anything being done?

Our driving standards have been allowed to descend to sloppy levels where people feel they can do as they pretty much want. Even this thread - people feeling victimised for breaking the law is an example of that.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122668057#Comment_122668057

The counter argument is...

Habitual speeders don't only speed on dangerous roads. The idea is to change habits.

I take the point that why not use limited resources on roads where there is actually a history of accidents. Make sense to me.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122660638#Comment_122660638

Essentially , on a 3 lane road what you have is a Driving lane (the left most lane) and TWO overtaking lanes.

So if you are not actively overtaking traffic you should be looking to get back in to the left most lane as quickly as possible , just as you would on a 2 lane road.

It is not as a lot of people seem to think a "slow" lane a "driving" lane and a "fast" lane.

StudentDad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122668343#Comment_122668343

One habit I'd like to see change as it may just force the govt. to provide proper public transport to scenic and/or rural areas, is to see the Gardai camped in various parts of the country checking not just for speed, but for alcohol and drugs. We all know some lovely pubs out in the middle of nowhere, where the clientele pile into anything with wheels and head off after a few drinks. Can't see the govt. doing that as they might actually have to solve the problem! Either enforce the law or provide people with an alternative to the car to get to these scenic areas that happen to have a pub!

kirving

Some M50 junctions are too close together to safely keep in the left lane, and also allow traffic to merge at certain times.

Busy, and the traffic is slow. Quiet are there aren't too many cars. But there's a time of medium traffic with lots of cars but the speeds are still high.

• J9 (N7) - J10 (Ballymount)
• J11 (Tallaght) - J12 (Knocklyon)

Best to keep to the middle lane there tbh.

kirving

The case against average speed cameras? Throwing €400m to YOUR MATES private company to make it look like you care about road safety is much better than installing 100% enforcement measures.

New contract for speed cameras to be worth up to €206m
Expanded contract will bring State’s overall spend on privatised speed cameras to more than €400m

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2024/03/29/new-contract-for-speed-cameras-to-be-worth-up-to-206m/

Sam Russell

The idea of these cameras being placed in pairs to check average speed over a particular stretch misses the power of the system.

A camera should be placed before or after each major junction on the motorways to check NCT Ins and Motor tax and track average speed over the whole length of the motorway.

Just checking for NCT, Ins and Motor tax would be huge in removing those from the road.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122668375#Comment_122668375

While I think I understand what you are saying

That's the theory imo....the practice in almost any country in the world I have driven in is very very different...I've driven on 3 Lane roads in a number of countries in Europe and extensively in the states and very few drivers use a 3 lane or more road like that afaics

And I think that makes sense…if they did the "slow lane" (leftmost in ireland) should have the bulk of the traffic with cars flitting in and out into the other lanes....you'd have chaos if people drove as the theory suggests.…it does behave a bit more like the theory if you have just two lanes but even then it's not perfect

I think you simply can't fight the natural tendancy for the available space to be filled up and most people adopt the approach of one of lanes being a fast lane and the others being lesser speed....

There must be a reason why that's what it always tends towards...I've literally never seen it operate any other way and I've driven in a decent amount of places etc....

I'd imagine there's a queue theory expert could explain it and the futility of expecting everyone to drive in innermost lane only moving out to overtake on all but perhaps two lane roads.....especially if you have traffic.....at 4 in the morning maybe....at rush hour.......not a **** chance

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122670249#Comment_122670249

Studies seem to suggest it has minimal impact on throughout. People seem to gravitate to whatever is less work, and less chaotic, less lane changing. Studies suggest it certainly seems to annoy people, because ironically people overtaking also want to do less work and less lane changing. Probably think it delays them.

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122670335#Comment_122670335

This is it exactly. People give out about drivers who won't move out of the middle lane because it means they have to move out of the middle lane themselves.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122670249#Comment_122670249

Agree, as previously pointed out, theory doesn't alway neatly apply in all practical scenarios. For me, constantly doing the dance from the left lane across 2 lanes to overtake a middle lane dawdler and then back again to the left lane while possible competing with drivers entering the M50 is madness and borderline dangerous in heavy traffic.

But of course it strictly adheres to the must drive on left theoretical mantra so must be complied with without question

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122670904#Comment_122670904

fecking nonsense here too la

Flinty997

Thinking about it, must be pita for late exit divers. You know those who leave it last minute to dive from lane 3 to the exit. Easier to do this from lane 2.

Where the M50 joins the M1 you've 5 lanes and people late diving from right to left and left to right. Quite the road design in fairness.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122672441#Comment_122672441

In other words the people that get in a huff about middle lane drivers are in all likelihood gobshites!

Red Silurian

Currently we have average speed cameras between Birdhill and Nenagh on the M7 and in the Port Tunnel in Dublin. I believe it has reduced accidents in the Port Tunnel but they are about as useful as as bird perches on the M7, it's one of the quietest parts of our national motorway network and has had very few accidents since its opening around 2010.

Conversely there are many stretches of road in towns and villages and city residential areas where cars speed on through without a care and this is where serious accidents usually happen. This is where average speed cameras are needed most

The rules of the road state that Lane 1 on a motorway (left hand side) is the driving lane where cars should spend most of their time with Lane 2 (right hand side) being the overtaking lane. In the event of a 3 or 4 lane motorway these lanes are to act as overtaking lanes, not driving lanes. This is also common sense but I think it's also unfair to be critical of people who drive in overtaking lanes as the driving test specifically does not cover motorway driving nor (to my knowledge) are there any road signs on the motorway detailing how it should be used

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122675134#Comment_122675134

I used to be one of those people who thought that lane 2 driving was fine.

Then I was shown the passages which explain what you said above. I have no issue with people new to the road not knowing, the issue is with people who refuse to learn (thinking that driving learning finishes the moment you get your licence, and feck everyone else)

Yeah, M7 average camera is a joke but it makes headlines and, probably, money for someone's connections. But the speed limit is the speed limit so cannot complain there, too much.

Can complain that the only focus, of the government and RSA, is speed. Speed may impart energy to a collision but, on a motorway, there is plenty of energy at 120KMH anyway. There is feck all patrols looking for phone use, erratic driving, bullying driving, slow (yes slow) driving especially in overtaking lanes.. list goes on.

These are the causes of the crashes on motorways. Speed on minor roads is far more likely to cause an accident but that is where there is no speed detection

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122675202#Comment_122675202

All of which you mention above could be camera detected but for some reason the RSA are vehemently against using camera based detection for the most common law breakers.