The case against average speed cameras

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122837916#Comment_122837916

NO!

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122837898#Comment_122837898

So, if I know I've been clocked for speeding I can drive on at any speed I like, for how long? the rest of that day, 20 mins?

vavava voom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122837929#Comment_122837929

🙄🙄🙄

It’s the same stretch of road.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122837936#Comment_122837936

I can drive from Ballincollig in Cork to Belfast (I think - can definitely get north of Dublin) with no traffic lights, just have to stop at tolls. Would that be the same stretch of road?

Or are we saying that you can be caught once per road per day? The M7 is apparently the longest motorway in Ireland at 166km, that seems like a very long stretch of road you can be speeding on to only be caught once for?

vavava voom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122838013#Comment_122838013

I’d be in favour of a system whereby drivers are guaranteed to be caught for each and every infringement - but only one punishment per 24 hours.

My reasoning: Habitual speeders will be suspended in 4 days anyway, if they’re driving like that every day and if only 1 ticket is issued per 24 hours then admin work is reduced for civil servants and í - win win.

For example, I don’t know why the speed advisory signs in towns can’t be actual speed cameras.

freddieot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122837916#Comment_122837916

Would that not indicate to a court, if you made that argument, that you likely speed all the time.

bladespin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122835304#Comment_122835304

Very much, nothing has been effective, fuill stop, we're in an endless loop.

Suggestions? yes I do, it's time to get away from treating the symptoms and look at the disease and that's behaviour and attitude; education would be the obvious place to satrt, they've already introduced a 'Driver education' scheme to the schools, I applaud that, nothing like hearing your 16 year old telling you 'there's some eegits on the roads dad' to open your eyes lol, regular retests should be a thing, and the theory section should have a psychometric that would highlight those most in need of 'help' - this is nothing new, multinationals have been using these tests for decades.

And no, I'm no expert; but I spend enough time on the road to see what's really wrong and it's not as simple as blaming the speeders, there's far more dangerous stuff happening, even within the limit, drove Navan yo Cork this morning and I've seen undertaking, lane blocking, lane cut ups (caused by the blocking -two wrongs), red light runners and a multitude of other sins and that's just one journey.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122842725#Comment_122842725

I respectfully disagree, drink driving was hammered by Gardai, there used to be a fear in the pub, the rumours of Gardai setting up a checkpoint, it really kicked drink driving into the area of being unacceptable because only an idiot would do it. Some for the real reason, some for fear if punishment but it worked. There has been zero enforcement in recent years, and the amount of DD is increasing albeit slowly (we all say it isn't but while nowhere near where it was, there are definitely a few more than there used to be).

Speeding should be the same, a few tough years of just hammering people until it is simply not acceptable. Use education in schools, explain to kids at 14 that going at X speed is stupid because Y happens and show a corpse in a car but it won't work on adults, the same way that pictures of lungs from cancer patients doesn't work on smokers. What works on smokers is tax and social exclusion, with the former being far more acceptable and effective in my opinion.

Anyway, I think we won't agree, you believe in humanity, you believe adults will change and are smart enough to realise that while the stats are in their individual favour, that as a community, we all need to cop on. I on the other hand believe many (not all) humans are egotistical and selfish, and unless they generally believe that either there will be a consequence, they will do whatever they feel suits them best.

I am biased by the way, I can stand on my pulpit but I am influenced by the fact that losing my license costs me my job and all the costs that go after that fact, so while I would love to think I would be as pious in all circumstances, it is quite likely that I am biased because no matter people view, I have to behave this way anyway.

Which I suppose lends credence to my enforcement argument.

Sam Russell

If you get one speeding detection, you get a fixed penalty. After that, you move into the discretion of the Gardai, and likely court appearance.

If it is more than two, then dangerous driving might be on the cards.

For a few, I doubt you would get away with less that a sizeable fine and a ban.

Witcher

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122843076#Comment_122843076

Yes, zero enforcement…except for the nearly 9000 arrests made for it last year.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122849522#Comment_122849522

Rough figures here, 60% of people commute to work by car, north of two million people are working, so conservatively, excluding retirees, students, unemployed etc, we have over 1.2million people commuting daily by car. Yes over 150000 were caught speeding so over estimating 0.125% of motorists per year are caught speeding. Using your numbers, only 0.0075% were arrested, and that is over exaggerating the percentage significantly.

So yes, enforcement is pretty damn well close to zero. 9000 is a tiny number when I think about the number of cars I see on my commute daily and a guess on how many speed, undoubtedly I have probably done so myself.

mikeecho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122850005#Comment_122850005

And more people are caught speeding/drink driving than being injured or killed.

I think your figures just show how safe the road network is.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122851003#Comment_122851003

And more people are caught speeding/drink driving than being injured or killed.

That's normal though, isn't it? Otherwise the implication is that you almost certainly will be injured or killed if you speed or drink/drive, rather than the fact that you are more likely to be in and/or cause an accident, and if you are it is likely to be more serious as well.

I think your figures just show how safe the road network is.

Certainly safer than many countries, not sure if that is a good enough reason not to do anything. A better way to look at it would be to see how many of those RTAs that caused serious injury or death were avoidable through behavioural change. I am practical and accept that not matter what is done, there will always be a small number of road deaths. My personal view would be to look at the road deaths and see what the major causes were, and can those causes be reduced or removed. It's H&S 101. Can you eliminate the hazard or associated risk? No, cars are here to stay. Can you substitute? A little, better PT and other ideas and that is on the way but slowly as well and at the minute only reduces the likelihood slightly. Are there engineering controls? Yes but not wide spread enough yet and need polishing up tremendously but definitely, self drive cars, lane assist, adaptive cruise control, black boxes like used to lower insurance costs and so on. What about Administrative controls? Yes, these are your speed cameras, check points, and so on but for these to work they need to be wide spread and visible which at the minute, despite claims, they are not. Last is PPE, which is not reasonably practicable (everyone in a roll cage, full face helmet, etc).

Anyway back to the point of the thread, is there a case against average speed cameras? To be honest, if there is, I have not seen it yet and no one has given one as far as I can see skimming back over it.

Sam Russell

@CramCycle [Anyway back to the point of the thread, is there a case against average speed cameras? To be honest, if there is, I have not seen it yet and no one has given one as far as I can see skimming back over it.]

If Av Speed cameras were installed on the vast majority of the motorway = that is cameras every 10 or 15 km talking to each other - then all motorist would be forced to refrain from speeding because they would be fined otherwise.

Now what would be the effect of this? Well, the behaviour of drivers would change while on motorways - watching their speed, and making sure their tax, ins, and NCT are all up to date.

I would think that would carry over onto their general driving. If it did, then the number of road traffic collisions would reduce, and deaths on the road would reduce. Now that would be a good result.

Downside? Well, a motorway journey might take longer if you are used to speeding. Remember, intermittent speeding while overtaking would not be picked up by the Av Speed Camera.

Now, the use on major N roads in country areas would, on some of the roads, might be worth it, but let the motorways lead the campaign.

extra-ordinary_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122852502#Comment_122852502

Remember, intermittent speeding while overtaking would not be picked up by the Av Speed Camera.

yes…average speed cameras know when you were overtaking 🙄

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122852626#Comment_122852626

They don't, you just have to compensate by slowing below the limit after overtaking.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122852626#Comment_122852626

I would expect that if implemented as a camera every 10 to 15 km on a motorway like the M7 from Limerick to Naas, 10 to 15 cameras required - this is over 150 km, a small transgression between two cameras, but otherwise OK could (with discretion) be ignored, but large or persistent transgression would not be and could be escalated to a court appearance.

Once implemented, drivers will quickly accept that 120 km/h means 120 km/h.

Just as they accept a red light means yellow, or soon to be yellow. When traffic light cameras are introduced, that will change. How enforcement will change the Irish driver!

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122853694#Comment_122853694

"Just as they accept a red light means yellow, or soon to be yellow." ????

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122853937#Comment_122853937

Currently, the officials that set the traffic light sequence take account of the fact that motorists do not stop on amber, and still think driving through a red light is OK for a few seconds - normally two or three cars go through on the red. Consequently, the green part of the sequence is delayed.

The traffic light enforcement cameras at Blackhall Place were turned off because - well I do not know why.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122853056#Comment_122853056

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122852626#Comment_122852626

Or, and call me crazy, on a motorway of all places, no need to go over the limit to complete an overtake. On a regular road, fair enough, get it done ASAP but on a motorway? Merge out as you approach the car in front, overtake without changing speed at all, and then merge back in. Not a dig at either of you but this should not be an issue on a motorway.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122854816#Comment_122854816

Why would you overtake a vehicle on a motorway?

Because it is travelling at less than the limit - for example an HGV. So passing it at the limit is not a problem. They are limited to 90 Km/h. Buses are limited to 100 Km/h.

Because it is towing a caravan. Again not a problem. Caravans are limited to 80 Km/h.

Because it is travelling at 119 Km/h. Are you serious?

Remember that your speedo is normally 5% below your actual speed.

Are you in that much of a hurry? Well, if you are, leave earlier.