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LUAS Network + Future Expansion

1246

Comments

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,273 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Busáras is a fantastic building (if you are interested in architecture).

    Donnybrook bus garage is also an interesting building from an architectural pov. Not sure if it is listed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 234 ✭✭PlatformNine


    Ah sorry I forgot about that. However I still stand by that even with the longer trams, without COVID and more WFH stunting growth for a few years, the green line would likely be over capacity by now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,053 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    I am fascinated with architecture.

    Have been lucky enough to see some of the most incredible places on the planet from Samarkand to Giza to Petra.

    Busáras is just brutal without the brutalism.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,273 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    This is off topic, but just look at the details of the building.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,362 ✭✭✭gjim


    Off-topic warning.

    The building is in the International Modern style - nothing to do with brutalist architecture at all. Like lots of old buildings in Dublin from every historical era going back hundreds of years, neglect and poor maintenance disguise what is a handsome piece of architecture. The general public's dismissive attitude to older buildings in Dublin is not at all typical in other cities where great pride is taken in maintaining and preserving architectural heritage (of all eras) as a visit to nearly any mainland European city will show. Plenty of examples of buildings in this architectural style and of this era which have been properly maintained and they look great. In Dublin, it's best to look at early photos, if available, to judge a building's qualities. Busaras was a great looking building before decades of neglect have left it in its current shabby state.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 234 ✭✭PlatformNine


    Are any of the other platforms nearly as bad as Busaras? Heuston maybe? it would also be very difficult to extend while still keeping all three platforms. I know many of the platforms don't have a lot of space to expend into, and there would need to be changes such as Smithfield possibly needing a similair layout to Beechwood, or the extensions being offset . But surely none of the other platforms would be as difficult to extend as Busaras or Heuston?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 154 ✭✭OisinCooke


    Is there an actual plan in place to extend the Red Line trams?? God knows they could do with it, especially at certain times of day…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 234 ✭✭PlatformNine


    Currently, nothing I can find. TII's Public Transport Active Porjects Active List that is published on their website is over a year old, so it might not be up to date. However, the tender(TII363) they published for procuring new trams specifically states that red line trams should not exceed 43.5m, but be extendable to not exceed 55m. If they are planning on these trams having a <30 year life span as with the current red line fleet, I think it means there is talk of extending the platforms within the next 10-15 years, or at the very least they want the option.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 144 ✭✭DoctorPan


    And they are very proud of the project, being the company's first international project and considered the start of firm being international. Very weird being at an European grad event and Busaras being presented alongside Sydney Opera House as company landmark projects.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,401 ✭✭✭VonLuck


    This might seem like a mad idea, but I always thought it would be good to extend Connolly Station southwards. You could have an upper level above the red line Luas tracks and then bridge across directly to Busaras.

    It could act as a central transport hub and avoid any pedestrian interaction with road traffic and also protection from the elements.



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,434 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    The one on Georges Dock is perfectly nestled between two streets. Similar at the Four Courts.

    Having said that I don't think any of them would be impossible, they are pretty minor and could probably be done.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,362 ✭✭✭gjim


    If we're talking about mad ideas, how about going the whole hog and getting rid of the Luas spur altogether? Frees up a chunk of land for a couple of tall buildings. Build an underground pedestrian link - in the basements of these new buildings - with travelators but also shops/retail/etc. that would continue under Amiens St to allow exit at the Busaras Luas stop.

    The geology of Dublin isn't great for underground stuff, but it surprising that there's almost nothing underground in the city at all and it's also a bit unusual to NOT have a transport hub which has a concentration of retail around it.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,434 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yes, I've always thought that perhaps even a simple walkway over the road from the upper section of Connolly to Busaras.

    However the question is if Busaras is even an adequate coach station any more and if not, then probably better not doing that and spending the money on moving to a larger/better location instead.

    BTW gjim, interestingly Busaras does have an underground level, with toilets and even a theatre underground! On removing the Luas spur from Connolly, you would lose turnback capacity if you did that, though if they extend the line to Poolbeg, perhaps a turnback facility could be built down around the port instead.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,401 ✭✭✭VonLuck


    That's an even better idea, to get rid of the spur. Although I would think an underground route wouldn't work too well as you would have to travel down two storeys from the train platform level to get to a basement level, and then back up again to ground level to get to the Luas.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 154 ✭✭OisinCooke


    While I can absolutely see where you’re coming from, I think removing the Luas tracks into Connolly is not the right idea, especially if a Malahide Road Luas line will be likely using it in future to head up Amiens Street and beyond. And while I’d love an underground walkway linking Connolly, the bus station and Busáras Luas, I’m afraid that it would become a very undesirable place to be… Unless it went from within Connolly to within Busáras, with minimal “public” access, but Busáras closes unbelievably early (which makes it very uncomfortable to be waiting for a midnight or 1am bus…) so I’m not sure how viable this would be unfortunately…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,112 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    When future lines are looked at would it be possabile to have battery powered luas like the darts coming in the futre or does such a thing exist?

    It would be a major saving for luas lines not to have overhead infastructure.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    The city of Florence has ordered battery-powered trams from Hitachi Rail (formerly AnsaldoBreda) for use on a planned extension through the old centre. Currently the T2 tram service ends at a stop just beyond Santa Maria Novella station on the edge of the city's historic centre, but it is planned to bring this line right into the centre (a stop at the Duomo was originally planned, but the route has been moved a couple of streets back from there).

    In the long term, this is a more expensive solution (batteries are more expensive, and they need replacing every 15 years or so), but in the case of a UNESCO heritage site like Florence, it's the only option.

    https://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/hitachi-rail-global/pressreleases/hitachi-rail-delivers-innovative-battery-tram-solution-to-boost-florences-mobility-while-protecting-historic-city-centre-landscape-3335708



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,434 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yes, I was thinking the same, another option are supercapacitor based trams. They only have enough charge to cover 3km, but can charge up in seconds at each stop (and regenerative breaking).

    Already been in use for a decade in Spain are are being rolled out in Australia and Luxembourg:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acumulador_de_Carga_R%C3%A1pida

    Of course battery technology is improving (and dropping in price) very quickly, we already have full EV double decker buses, soon EV trains, it wouldn't be surprising if in 20 years the battery tech gets even cheaper and better and becomes the default for new trams.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Thanks for that link.. I couldn't remember which city was using supercapacitors, or if I'd just imagined it...

    Supercapacitors have the advantage that they have a service life that's at least as long as the vehicle they're installed in, and they can provide a lot of power over a very short period : ideal for getting a tram moving (once it gets rolling, the tram's own inertia means that relatively little power is needed to keep it going).

    The big, big disadvantage of SCs is the cost. They've got equivalent energy density (kWh per kg) to lithium ion batteries, and much better power output, but they cost about 50x the price of Li-ion batteries. That sounds bad, but it could actually be acceptable in a tram system if you account for the cost with Li-ion of taking the vehicles out of revenue service for a full battery refurbishment halfway through their operating lifetime.

    This doesn't fix the other major cost of laying a tramway: moving under-street services, but it would reduce visual impact and construction cost in some areas.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,273 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    In the south of France, Nice uses the same trams as we do and the trams cross Place Massena under battery power. Now it is a while since I was there but it meant there were no O/H wires to be seen. It covered a Km or two on battery.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,273 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Probably we should have done the same for College Green. Perhaps this could be retrofitted.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,273 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I would have thought that O'CS would be the most appropriate place for no-O/H lines, for both GL and RL.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,434 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    That whole core city center area shouldn't have them, OCS, across the bridge, across College Green, down by Stephens Green too.

    And yes, I forget which tram company, but I do remember them specifically advertising adding batteries as a retrofit option to remove the cables.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,273 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Well, Place Massina in Nice has had them a long time, and identical trams to ours. Not sure how far they can go, but certainly enough to cope with O'CS and College Green.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,434 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Interestingly Alstom won a contract to supply fully battery powered trams to Saudi Arabia. They will cover 22km with no overhead cables. Good example of what they are capable of with new battery tech and a possible option for new lines here:

    https://www.enr.com/articles/58095-alstom-wins-540m-contract-for-saudi-battery-powered-tramway



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,405 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Spending a lot of money to remove overhead lines for no operational benefit seems crazy to me.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    The choice of battery-only trams for that Saudi system was due to princely meddling, I suspect. There's really no reason to not use overhead lines in a short, new-build system like this. Another sign of too much money is in the render of the tram itself:


    That image is from Alstom, by the way. Believe it or not, this is the same Citadis tram product as used for Luas. Everywhere in the world that uses these trams, you usually have a custom front and end cab, but the same body profile, but this one looks to be fully bespoke.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 224 ✭✭scrabtom


    It does look pretty cool in fairness to those bastards.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,423 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    it's pie in the sky. There's a lot of issues with the public realm in Dublin that could be fixed quicker and cheaper than removing the tram wires.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Agreed. The cost of overhead wires is tiny compared to the cost of removing all the under-road services before the track goes down.

    Adding a small battery (giving around 500 m autonomy) is handy to avoid having to wire complex crossings, junctions or public squares, but it hasn't been needed in Dublin to date, and is unlikely to be in future.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,112 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I was in the Glassbottle site this week. The way the units are going up there they could do with building a luas extension very quickly from the city center



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 154 ✭✭OisinCooke


    Agreed, I’ve seen the development myself from afar and they really are flying up. Ideally the Lucan Line will run through the south city core and continue on to serve Ringsend and Poolbeg and all the development which is exponentially going up there. However a Red Line link from The Point in addition would be great, meaning that with a direct Red Line and Lucan Line link at both James’ and Ringsend, a lot more flexibility is opened up for tram diversions and even (although to be honest I don’t personally think this is a great idea, it will look appealing to the pen pushers and the public as being similar to many other successful urban transport systems) allows for the possibility of a Luas ‘Circle Line’ around the city centre.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 234 ✭✭PlatformNine


    If luas lucan extends to Poolbeg, I think it would already have a connection with the red line after its extended to Poolbeg? I think it is a lot more feasible than having them interchange at the point, as the area where the Poolbeg red line station is has plenty of space to expand. If needed they could even make the station 6 platforms as a double 3-platform terminus.

    The circle line is an interesting idea, I don't think much can be said about feasibility yet as I think both Lucan and Poolbeg have a number of very different routes to decide from. Mainly it seems there is both an option for the Poolbeg extension to terminate either facing north or south on Sean Moore road, and it would make more sense to make a circle line if they chose the route that terminates facing north. That said I think having the two lines stay as separated as possible and having people interchange at Poolbeg or the western interchange would offer a more frequent service.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,273 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Will the red line and Lucan line not be a bit close for you to be branding them a circle line? Though there might not be a viable route further south.

    Post edited by spacetweek on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,423 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    I was looking at the Poolbeg extension and thinking it would be crazy not to extend it to meet the Dart but I just can't see a viable route



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 234 ✭✭PlatformNine


    It depends on the final allignment. The circle line would be best if they pick the Grand Canal route, though I still think it would be possible with the Cork street route if its routed through SSG. Any allignment further north, so the Heuston route, or if they routed the Cork street option through College Green, I think would be too close to the red line for a circle line.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 234 ✭✭PlatformNine


    I think the DART connections could be made as a part of Luas Lucan. The idea I had was if it followed the Cork street-SSG route option, instead of terminating at SSG, it could be extended to Poolbeg and routed to have an interchange with Pearse and/or GCD. The stops likely couldn't be placed too close to the DART stations, but I think it would be comparable to Busaras and Connolly.

    Eitherway, I don't think Luas Lucan should terminate at Heuston or SSG, I think it makes more sense to continue through CC, and terminate anywhere else, though I think Poolbeg is the best option.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,273 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Totally agree about Lucan Luas continuing past Stephens Green, but I think it should go Leeson St to Wilton Terrace to Clanwilliam Place (for Grand canal Dock).

    For the Stephens Green South stop, you’d have to decide whether you intended it to be South west to serve Luas Green line or south east to be closer to Metrolink.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75 ✭✭roddney


    Hard if it turns right at O2 Arena and heads to Poolbeg alright. Easy if it turns left and heads via side of Dublin Port to back of Eastpoint Business Park and on to Clontarf Dart Stations. Would make a good future Malahide Road Luas. Also, options to run either via Dublin Port and a bridge or tunnel via Vernon Ave in Clontarf and Brookwood Ave to Dart at Harmonstown with new entrance on Brookwood. Would allow up Malahide Road without disrupting new Bus Connects Bus lanes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 154 ✭✭OisinCooke


    Ideally, a Dame Street route could have a Tara Street and Pearse (Sandwich Street) stop for a direct DART, DART tunnel and ML link but we’re yet to see whether or not they want to route it down Cork St or Dame Street. For me the canals is an awful option, much too far out from the city centre and there is not much road capacity for it.

    Also a very good point. I suppose the idea was more just that you’d be able to get between all the city stations via the one tram than specifically a circle line. However I do think that the Lucan Line (whatever route it takes) should be operated in the city centre much like the Red Line with a cord of track provided to link trains heading from the CC towards Lucan with Heuston. The way I see this working would be to extend Heuston’s currently terminating turnback platform to be a through-turnback. The current Connolly-Heuston services could then be extended to SSG/College Green/Tara/Poolbeg/wherever and could act as a shuttle from virtually anywhere in the city centre to Heuston without taking much capacity off the trams going out of the city to Lucan, in the exact same way that the Red Line currently works. Just an idea I suppose but could prove useful…?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,112 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    To tie in with the red line at the point would the luas have to be battery powered for crossing the liffey?

    I am not sure how over head cables would work on a lifting bridge for the luas to cross the liffey. I am sure it could be done but it would not be cheap.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,963 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I'm absolutely certain there's various lift bridges in the Netherlands, rail and metro with OHLE. However Google has been enshittified so much now I'm getting kids toys and AI 'art'works instead of actual content.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,434 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    So true, but apparently the Dutch think who needs cables if you just YOLO the train across the bridge LOL:

    Obviously that won't work for this crossing, apparently there is an example for trains in Norwich, they use a rigid bar over the bridge which is separated from the usual wire on either side:

    https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1675740

    You could also just put a small battery on the Luas trams, just enough to cross the bridge. It could even be part of an upgrade with a hybrid system for regenerative breaking to reduce power usage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 234 ✭✭PlatformNine


    I think it would be possible to route it both down Cork street and Dame street, as I think the only other way to get it to Dame street would be via James street. Though I don't know if they could use Patrick street, the gradient might be too steep. However what concerns me is if they were to route to Dame street, they would likely need to route through college green, and I am not sure how they could do that without either congesting college green or tearing it up for a cut and cover. I don't think having it cross at st stephens green is much better, as it would also require some separate grading. However it would require less disruption than at college green, and might become necessary anyways to avoid congestian with the F-spine.

    It might, I think it entirely depends on if there is room to add services for that without reducing frequency of red line and Lucan line services.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 234 ✭✭PlatformNine


    If looking at the battery route, how large of a battery would be needed? The moveable section is only about 50m? At what point is it cheaper to just electrify the section of bridge than installing batteries in the red line fleet?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 713 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    I don't ever see a Luas crossing College Green, from Dame Street, as I think the disruption could not be justified, both during construction and when operating. The front of Trinity will have the Luas Cross City and the A / E / F Core Bus Corridors, while the side of Trinity will have the Luas Cross City and the B / C Core Bus Corridors.

    Adding another busy tram route into that mix would negate the whole point of closing off College Green, and creating a pedestrian plaza, in the first place... which is to minimize conflicts.

    However, I still think a spur from James down to College Green (terminating there) would have merit. That spur could potentially operate from Heuston West even, or by having some Red Lines services terminate there, hence freeing up capacity on the Red Line north of the river.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,434 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Relatively very small batteries to cover that small distance. Shouldn't pose any problems in terms of weight, space, etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,618 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    If you take a look at the pinch points on the red line one by one can we do anything about them without lengthy closures of the line?
    For example look at the Belgard road crossing- could new Luas track be laid on the north side of Katherine Tynan road temporarily to keep the line open which would allow a bridge be built over the Belgard road and old Belgard road in the current alignment.
    The station would also have to be moved temporarily further to the west.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,423 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    the red line's priority through the city centre section is terrible. I know some of the roads it crosses are also major bus routes but anytime I get it, it spends a lot of time sitting at junctions where there are just private cars going past (bottom of Gardiner Street springs to mind).

    Some form of intelligent signalling at these junctions would probably go a long way to speeding it up without having to dig anything up. It should have absolute priority if there are no buses crossing, and if there are buses crossing there could be some sort of algorithm to decide who gets priority.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3 iewd




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