Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

LUAS Network + Future Expansion

12346»

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,400 ✭✭✭VonLuck


    Great idea. The 99 is completely underutilised and I would fear it will get scrapped for making huge losses (although I imagine they knew this going in). It regularly has no one on it at certain times of the day.

    It should run from Ashtown train station with a series of stops within the Phoenix Park, then stop at Heuston and the next stop would be Connolly. It would give huge connectivity between the two train lines, as well as providing a useful public transport to various points in the park.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,805 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    The red line outside the city centre on-street section operates much more like a metro. The problem with red line is mostly in the city centre is capacity and speed related, with capacity being restricted by the slow speeds and conflict with other traffic. Even the busses are faster than the red line going into town.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 154 ✭✭OisinCooke


    Very much agree with the speed and general better priority at junctions, an easy and obvious fix, but disagree strongly however with the stop-spacing, as another user mentioned, it is a tram and not a metro and so frequent stops, especially in the actual centre of the city is very important.

    I also see what you mean about the quays, it would have been nice with the original Red Line plans, but realistically it’s too close to the current Red Line to make it anyway feasible for another east-west alignment. I think a Fatima - Cork St - Kevin St - Cuffe St (and beyond to Ringsend, via ideally an ML and DART link) route through the south city centre is the best option in terms of opening up the most parts of the city for rail-based-PT while not encroaching on the Red Line or DART Underground

    And again while this is true, another north- south tram alignment would be great, if only for opening up route flexibility. A route from Clanbrassil St - Patrick St (new EW line link) - Church St (RL link at Four Courts) - Constitution Hill (GL link at Broadstone) and beyond, or Dolphin’s Barn St - Cork St (new EW line link) - Marrowbone Lane - Bridgefoot St - Mellowes Bridge - Queen St (RL link at Smithfield) - Brunswick St/North King St - Constitution Hill (GL link at Broadstone) and beyond would be two great options for a new line and could help with cross city routes from the southwest and south to the north, northwest and northeast. Just my own thoughts though but I think that at least 2 north-south and two east-west alignments would be required for a fantastic city centre tram network



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    FWIW re: stop spacing on the red line, Smithfield and Four Courts being merged would be the one thing I'd suggest, they are barely a tram length apart.

    The alternative would be separate the 2 stations further, but the areas they would then serve don't really have trip generators currently



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,407 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    that section of the Red Line is so slow you might as well have the extra stop, you'd just end up with more bunching of trams.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 221 ✭✭scrabtom


    From my experience so few people get on or off at the Four Courts that it's only ever stopped there for less than 30 seconds anyway. That might be different at rush hour though.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,423 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I also see what you mean about the quays, it would have been nice with the original Red Line plans, but realistically it’s too close to the current Red Line to make it anyway feasible for another east-west alignment. I think a Fatima - Cork St - Kevin St - Cuffe St (and beyond to Ringsend, via ideally an ML and DART link) route through the south city centre is the best option in terms of opening up the most parts of the city for rail-based-PT while not encroaching on the Red Line or DART Underground

    I get what you mean, but I think that is the wrong way to look at it. It isn't about destinations or being too close to the Red Line, it is about adding East to West capacity to the network. The Red Line is at capacity along this route and this could double that capacity for a relatively low cost.

    If we end up building out a future comprehensive Luas network that replaces many of the core bus routes coming into the city, then we will need all the capacity we can get in the city center. In other European cities with comprehensive tram networks, it isn't at all unusual to see tram lines going down parallel streets, it just helps them add capacity where needed.

    And don't get me wrong, still do your East - West line further south too. Three East to West lines like this would give you a capacity similar to the North - South Metrolink, but at a much lower cost.

    The idea is for a relatively low cost, add lots of city center capacity to help handle an extensive future Luas network. To be honest, I don't see how you could deliver the Luas 2050 Vision without doing this. How could the Red line handle a new Blanchardstown line and Clongriffin Line feeding into it!

    Looking at the Luas 2050 Vision, they most be thinking about adding a Luas line to the quays, it is the only way it could work.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,424 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    how is the red line at capacity? arent the trams much shorter than the green line? is lengthening the stops the problem?



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,423 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yes, you couldn't put a longer tram at the Busaras stop. Now maybe you could move the stop, but options are tight and limited around there. There are also other locations that would need to be moved or dealt with. I don't think it is impossible, but would likely need some CPO's, moving stops, etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,424 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Ok, so how about upgrading the red line, leaving the existing bit between heuston and the point as is, but turn the rest of it into a metro? going underground shortly after the naas road? Could this then be used as the heavy east - west spine that we need? serve heuston station and several other areas, terminating perhaps at the new irish glass bottle site etc?



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,197 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Sounds very much like DART Underground, which would also do wonders for relieving congestion on the Red line.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,423 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Easy, run a new line parallel down the quays. Could be part of the new Blanchardstown and Clongriffin lines. Doing this would be WAY cheaper then either doing a Metro or DART Underground.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,295 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Or just send Red Line down to College Green, Lucan Line down the Quays and Blanchardstown/Clongriffin use the existing Red Line.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,423 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yep, that is definitely an option and would make more sense, avoids Blanchardstown/Clongriffin crossing the red line.

    Or perhaps Blanchardstown/Clongriffin down the current red line, Red line down the quays and Lucan down one of the proposed options further south.

    Lots of potential options, I suppose it would depend on which are the busier lines and the max capacity of each.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,424 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    I don't think another luas down the quays etc is worth considering, it'd way cheaper than DU or a metro. But it's also a total joke of a system in comparison...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,424 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Not exactly, my plan opens up major transport capacity, for the huge amount of industrial units around the nass road, to be turned into residential, as per plans...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 154 ✭✭OisinCooke


    I think there’s no way around it, DART Underground NEEDS to happen, it’s not about getting people from Heuston to the city centre, or taking pressure off the Red Line, it’s about maximising the capacity and usability of the Northern Line and the Kildare Line - the two only fully grade separated (and hopefully soon enough, quad-tracked, and therefore IC-and-stopping-service-separated) lines in the country to create a near Metro style DART service, and no Lucan - Ringsend metro or east-west Luas line can ever achieve anywhere near this.

    This is not in any way to say however that we don’t need more east-west Luas alignments, the fact is we needed them 20 years ago. In an ideal world, the Red Line would be cut and covered between the Aishling Hotel and George’s Dock, but I fear this is unlikely to happen.

    Separating the city centre section with the Naas Road and beyond sections of the Red Line and converting the latter to metro, while a nice idea, is unfortunately also very unlikely, and not a fantastic plan overall. The line is rather unsuitable, with a great number of graded heavy intersections and tight turns. I agree though that a capacity and frequency upgrade is needed on this line, and while extra trams in this outer section is very feasible, this becomes much more of an issue when they reach the city centre.

    I like the ideas of having 3 separate lines for the 3 separate routes - Red Line, Lucan Line and possible future Blanchardstown Line but I think a line down the quay is the wrong idea. A better solution would be a line down Cork/Kevin/Cuffe Street, and another down Thomas/Dame Street. This has the same effect but opens up far more areas to Luas than a line down the quay which would be only 150m away from the Red Line at most, while also keeping a very equal spacing between the 3 lines - about 500m to 750m. I know that the idea is not to increase catchment but rather capacity, but I think there’s no harm at all in having extra city centre tram access, especially to places like Temple Bar, Christchurch and St Patrick’s.

    Going back to the Red Line city centre capacity, I believe DART Underground plays a critical part in this. Once open, it will become the primary desired way to get from the city centre to Heuston and therefore will alleviate huge pressure off the Red Line in the city centre. While not a full solution to the need for extra trams, it will certainly hugely improve tram capacity for people in these suburbs who’s trams home won’t be packed with Heuston commuters who will all instead be on DU hopefully. This combined with better priority for Luas at junctions in the city centre, and maybe sending some Red Line trams down either of the other 2 city centre routes which may be quieter, would really make a great difference to the feel of the Red Line in the suburbs and city centre.

    Tram length on the Red Line could very easily be increased to Green Line levels too, as outside the city centre there is plenty of space to increase platforms. Within the city centre there isn’t however, so the Red Line would need to use the new south city route (which could be built brand new from the start with increased length platforms) instead of the Lucan Line which would use the city centre portion of the current Red Line - Luas Lucan follows a route through much less dense suburbs than the Red Line so could easily survive with shorter platforms.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,423 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I’ll be honest, I don’t really want to discuss DU here, as there are other threads for it and it has already been discussed. Given the Dart+ Tunnel report, unfortunately I believe the project is dead and that we won’t see it in our lifetimes, so I’m working on that presumption and given the topic of this thread, looking at the alternative options and more at what would need to be done to deliver the Luas Vision 2050 network.

    I agree completely that outside the city it would be trivial to upgrade the red line stations to support 55m trams. I previously went looking at every station on Google Maps to get a feel for it and while of course there would be some work to do, like moving track switch overs, etc. it really doesn’t look difficult at all. It is the city center section that constrains it.

    That is why I like the idea of the quays, given the space available there, it should be trivial to build all the stations to 55m spec.

    I totally understand the attraction of Cork/Kevin/Cuffe Street, however the issue is where do you go from there, it just ends at Stephen’s Green. By comparison along the quays you boost capacity right into the Docklands. It would also help support all the new lines on the North Side of the city, Blanchardstown, Clongriffin, Balgriffin lines, while your Cuffe Street routing wouldn’t help there.

    Also another point, if you take the current red line and move it all the way down to cuffe street, you are going to have lots of angry current red line users as now it doesn’t go where they need and they have to transfer. By comparison moving the red line just one street south shouldn’t be as controversial. I know this shouldn’t matter, but look at the controversy about the BusConnects E-spine and the NCR.

    I’m definitely not against the idea of using cuffe street, hell maybe even do that too and have different trams take different routes like is common all over Europe, a real network!

    But I do think the people are over focusing on destinations, I don’t think it is as important as capacity and flexibility.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,374 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    The Heuston - Point part is the slow bit. After that it's a lot quicker. There's no point putting it underground outbound after Heuston. The city centre is the problem. It still doesn't have signal priority ffs.

    FWIW I don't expect DU to be built within most of our lifetimes, it'll probably be 50 years before they see sense.

    Post edited by Hotblack Desiato on

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,424 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    How can DU be dead, with the population exploding the way it is ? Also whatever figure it will cost, will be an absolute pittance in the scheme of our annual budgets... our best hope is, they start fining us billions for our emissions breaches



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,423 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    It would be better to discuss that in the dedicated DU thread (the dead part that is).

    I was thinking about it a bit more yesterday, even if DU was built for arguments sake, I'd still think you would need more East to West Luas lines regardless.

    Sure, DU would remove some of the demand trying to get on Luas at Heuston Station. However I wouldn't see most people coming on the Red line South of Heuston bothering to swap to DART there (too close to the city already, needing to transfer, etc.).

    If the Luas Vision 2050 happens, there is no way the "Abbey St" section of the red line could handle it, even if DU was there. Think about it:

    1. We extend all the Southern Red Line stations to 55m, thus increasing demand heading to the city on it.
    2. We build a new extension to Clondalkin feeding into the Red line from the south.
    3. We extend the red line to Poolbeg.
    4. We build a new Blanchardstown line feeing directly into the Abbey Street section of the Red line!
    5. We build a new Clongriffin line feeding directly into the Abbey Street section of the Red line!

    Yikes, think about it, there is no way the existing red line could handle all that, even if DU existed to take some of the pressure off. Just the number of extra trams trying to use it would make it impossible IMO.

    So from my perspective on this DU isn't really part of this, it is it's own thing and needs to prove itself separately. Either way if we are to do the Luas Vision 2050 or some form of that, extra East West lines will need to happen regardless.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,424 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    question, why at the red cow for examples, cant they put a roof over the luas stops and bus stops, so people could could avoid getting soaked and have more seating?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,048 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Probably to avoid it becoming a useful place for homeless people.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,424 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    I assumed as much, just dont put in seating that case, merely a roof…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 256 ✭✭Thunder87


    The same question could be asked across most our public transport infrastructure, most stations provide the absolute bare minimum in shelter or comfort and half our bus stops are still just a pole. I was going to say you'd think we live in a sunny country with the way our infrastructure is designed but then thinking about it most sunny countries I've visited still provide shelter from the sun.

    For me it's 100% a consideration when deciding whether to use public transport vs driving somewhere, if its a case of a comfortable drive vs standing in unpleasant weather for 10-15 minutes waiting for a bus/train I'll likely drive



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,818 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    Most people will drive anyway. And with almost 2.5 million car owners in fhe state and rising, that number will only increase.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,048 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    If it’s a sunny country, you’ll need protection from the sun.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,423 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Most of the Luas stops do have a shelter but not all. Parnell Street and Abbey street as an example. Now not a very big shelter I admit, probably should be a lot longer, but they do have them.

    I don’t know why they all don’t have them, O’Connell Street and a few others might be to reduce the visual impact on the GPO or other historic buildings. No idea why Red Cow doesn’t have them.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,423 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Actually hold on the Red Cow Luas stop does have shelters too! Again not very big ones, but definitely there.

    The more I look, the more I see that the majority of stops have shelters. Just the OCS, Trinity and Dawson Street stops stand out as not having them. I suspect that is down to the visible aspect on historic buildings.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,413 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    To be fair, the new bus interchange there will be getting a canopy at least (Yes, the current "new" interchange is a temporary one that was put in place ahead of a full rebuild)



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21 DrivingSouth


    This is emblematic of the historic attitude to public transport in this country. I had great hopes for the bus interchange stops as part of bus connects based on what I've seen in other places, but they are earmarked to be just as small and **** as you might expect.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 232 ✭✭PlatformNine


    TII has released a new version of their Active Projects List, and while it is mostly nothing new, it did note that they expect to sign the contract for the new Luas fleet this year! I was hoping we would see a contract signed or order placed this year, but I think this is the first we have seen a more solid date given by TII? I am guessing it will be more Alstom Citadis units, but I am still excited to see what the future of the fleet will look like.

    https://www.tii.ie/en/public-transport/projects-and-improvements/p-t-active-projects-list/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 221 ✭✭scrabtom


    Is that car park in Carrickmines really forecast to cost 500 million to 1 billion?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26 Taisteal Éireann


    Another copy and paste job. The benefits of Luas Bray include "Facilitate Poolbeg SDZ and Dublin Port Masterplan".

    To add to that, up to €1 billion for a car park in Carrickmines is scandalous.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,424 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    that carrickmines car park , is surely someone on the wind up?! a 350 space i.e. drop in the ocean , car park for 500,000,000 to a billion? It has to be a mistake…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,197 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Of course it’s a mistake. This is clearly a cut-and-paste error, where this page was simply copied from the previous one and edited with the new information, but the cost field wasn’t updated. There are several other such errors in the document.

    I expect to see the “Irish” Daily Mail run a story about this “billion euro carpark scandal” in a week or so…



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,267 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    When I just opened the document, the Carrickmines car park is listed as €35 million so looks like they fixed it. Very sloppy though.



Advertisement