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LUAS Network + Future Expansion

1235

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,595 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Are we maxed out on the frequency and length of the trams on the red line?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 232 ✭✭PlatformNine


    I completely agree my point was more that it likely couldn't go down Dame street as part of Luas Lucan, as it would be better to terminate the line further away from CC. Or like you say, it would have to be a spur, not the main terminus.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,595 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    I would imagine it will be a no brainer to extend the red line at the point:

    down east wall road

    across the liffey on a new bridge

    over to the glass bottle site where 3800 new units are going to be constructed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,048 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    No brainer or not, everything moves at snail’s pace….



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,197 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Slated for “before 2042".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,595 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Christ!
    At that stage all residents will be in at least 12 years!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,197 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Doesn’t mean it won’t be done until 2042. Luas Finglas is in the same category on that map. I see Poolbeg Red and the Bray Green extensions being the next projects once Finglas gets its RO. As the shorter project, Poolbeg could be before Bray.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,595 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Yeah but they all go into the same pinch point that is ABP.

    That particular department is absolutely killing this country.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,942 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Metrolink will pass its 2nd birthday with ABP soon. TII have even complied with ABPs vexatious demand for additional public consultation. Even if the RO is granted very soon, we'll still be having 2 years of legal challenges from Charlemont residents. This doesn't bode well for new infrastructure. The current metrolink project is now unlikely to break ground within a decade of the project commencement date.

    We were able to get big projects to construction much quicker 20 years ago. It seems we've deliberately tied ourselves up in red tape.

    I recently read the ABP inspectors report on the DART+ W RO, thankfully the board over ruled him on most items.

    Objections included:

    Heritage bridges like Cope bridge should not be changed at all....ever

    Construction noise, seemingly any type or volume isn't to be tolerated

    The depot should be in an urban area accessible by public transport, but should also be big enough to stable trains and not be at risk from flooding.

    It's as if we're employing people to adjudicate on these matters who:

    a) know nothing at all about railways and how they operate or are constructed, and

    b) who have absolute, unshakeable, confidence in their uneducated opinion, to the point that they wouldn't even ask someone or consult the near sum of human knowledge available for free via the Internet.

    The whole thing needs a clear out, people who haven't an effing breeze what they're scuttering on about need to be put on some tasks more suited to their skills and hire actual experts to scrutinise applications instead.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,197 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Just about on topic, as it is probably related to some future plan for Luas, but the arrangement (below) always puzzles me when I pass it. This is where the southbound Green Line crosses Red Line - I’ve drawn the directions of the trams on the image for reference. So: what purpose can the chord in yellow ever serve?

    It could see it making sense if Marlborough St originally was supposed to run Northbound, as it would then have allowed for a Connolly to St Stephen’s Green Luas service. (Of course, the O’Connell St Northbound to Abbey St Westbound track link would then make no sense.)

    Note that the only points anywhere near here are the trailing points shown here (Red East to Red West) which allowed Red Line trams to turn back after the Abbey St stop on the original Luas Line A, which terminated at Abbey St. If there was an opposite set of leading points (i.e. Red West crossing over to Red East briefly), then I could see the whole thing as a way of making a right turn from Red West to Green South work in limited space, but there isn’t.

    Can anyone shed any light on this?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,916 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    It allows unit exchanges between the lines, it was never intended for service; ditto the OCS one.

    Its of very limited need, as Green Line units are too long for the stops on the Red Line anyway; however when cross-city opened there were units borrowed from the Red Line.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,197 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Thank you! I figured it was about shuffling rolling stock, rather than providing service options. I know Green and Red would be very hard to mix and match, not just due to tram lengths: Green runs to a much tighter schedule than Red once out of the city centre, so trying to make space for Red trams in a stream of Green ones would just degrade service quality.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 232 ✭✭PlatformNine


    https://www.euronews.com/travel/2024/11/27/want-to-ride-the-worlds-longest-tram-hop-aboard-the-record-breaking-vehicle-in-this-german

    It seems we have now been bumped down to third, with these being almost 4m longer than our 502s. I would be curious to see if later Luas projects are designed for longer trams however, it seems more manufacturers are designing 50m+ trams, and the longer trams seem to be gaining popularity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,595 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    How do you become an ABP inspector?

    What qualifications are required?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23 oliver_murray


    5 years of experience as a planner and a 4 year undergraduate degree in planning



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,424 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 232 ✭✭PlatformNine


    I can't find an exact number but it is over 400 passengers. Which is interesting because these new 59m trams supposedly only carry 380 passengers. However the trams are narrow gauge, not 100% low-floor, and seem to have fewer doors, so I could see why that might be the case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58 ✭✭Brightlights66


    It is now a full 7 years since the last inch of rail was built in Dublin (The link-up opened in December 2017).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 221 ✭✭scrabtom




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23 oliver_murray


    yes but you'd need a somewhat relevant undergrad to get that masters anyways



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,048 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    The anniversary should be marked by lobby groups to embarrass (if that’s possible) the governing parties.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,424 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    In a state awash with money and a massive infrastructure deficit, its beyond a disgrace…



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,423 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    A health warning about passenger numbers. There is an important piece of information missing from such numbers. How many passengers per square meter are they basing the measurement on?

    Some measure such numbers on 4 per sqm, other companies and countries on 5 per sq meter, etc. So unless that number is included it can be hard to compare.

    This is even the case between the original short Luas trams and the newer longer ones. The original ones used a more dense passenger number then the new longer ones, so the new longer ones don't look to have added as many extra passengers per given length as they should have! But it is really just a different measurement.

    You are probably correct about narrow gauge and not 100% low floor actually make them less capacity then Luas, but worth keeping in mind the passengers per square meter measurement.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,805 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Once the Lucan Luas, plus the various extensions are built, what would be the next line that would get built? Not another extension somehwhere surely?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 154 ✭✭OisinCooke


    I think either a Point to Poolbeg Red Line extension or the new Lucan Line (hopefully with through-running through the south city centre and out into Ringsend/Irishtown that way) are the next projects and realistically after that I’d say will come Luas Bray.

    It’s hard to say what will come after those though, maybe a diversion of the Green Line down the N11, to go in tandem with Metrolink finally opening by this stage and people realising that a Metro-ified Green Line IS actually what they want and what is needed…

    After that though is anyone’s guess. Luas Knocklyon or Malahide Rd/Balgeiffin seem like the ones that would be needed the most but either of these would be possibly the biggest Luas project to date and will require huge planning. Maybe an orbital line will get the go-ahead either? It’s really anyone’s guess I think…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 232 ✭✭PlatformNine


    That I couldn't tell you, the story Ive heard (though I can't remember where from, but it is supported by old articles I have seen) is that they were to hold 350-400 passengers, but oncer in service TII found that they could carry over 400.

    But yea having been on my fare share of AM peak trams… I question the safety of that 400 number.

    It could also be that the balance between seated and standing capacity is different on these new trams. I can't find interior pictures to get a reference, and the only reference I can find is that is seats 144 passengers from the article below. If that is true I think that would be a good bit more than the 502s, though I am not sure on the seating count of the 502s, or if the article is actually correct.

    https://rollingstockworld.com/lrv/skoda-group-releases-the-world-longest-tram/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 232 ✭✭PlatformNine


    Luas Cork I believe is the next, and I believe is supposed to have some progress to show sooner than Later. After that is Luas Poolbeg, Lucan, and Bray next, all which are supposed to be completed before 2042. Technically I think Lucan is the furthest along the planning process, but because of its length and likely requiring another depot, even if started first it would be operational last. Bray I think is in an odd spot, because it keeps getting delayed, and personally I think given the length of the line, should be at least upgradable to a metro standard along side Charlemont-Sandyford.

    Post-2042 is much more difficult to say, I believe idea from GDATS is that the post-2042 line planning is supposed to start soon than later, so that the highest demand corridors can begin construction and be operational shortly after 2042. However given the number of alignments that definitely isn't the case for all of them.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,267 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Balgriffin is an easy win and wouldn't be disruptive apart from the approach to Connolly (though they really need to continue across the river then head east to Ringsend).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,295 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Once all of the current public transport projects have gone to tender, there should be some resources freed up for future planning.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,595 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    The next line to be built should be: (parts of it really should be metro standard from Ballyboden on in to CC- but anyway):

    TALLAGHT (from the red line terminus at the square down to the N81 and east towards old bawn road

    OLD BAWN ROAD- (continue south towards Firhouse road west)

    THE OLD MILL- (P+R opportunity, local bus routes to feed into this stop, turn east towards M50 Firhouse jnct)

    KILLINNINY ROAD 1 (at scholars pub)

    KILLINNINY ROAD 2 (at junction of ballycullen road)

    SCHOLARSTOWN ROAD (outside st colmcilles school)

    BALLYBODEN WAY (near boden heath)

    ROUNDABOUT AT BALLYBODEN WAY AND BALLYBODEN ROAD (The luas splits here and one leg heads up towards sandyford green line terminus via- TAYLORS LANE + GRANGE ROAD + BREHON FIELD ROAD + N31

    the other leg heads up ballyboden road towards RATHFARNHAM CASTLE + TERENURE + HAROLDS X + CLANBRASSIL STREET+ PATRICK STREET+ CHRISTCHURCH+ LORD EDWARD STREET+ DAME STREET

    Post edited by tom1ie on


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,423 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    When the original 40m Luas trams were launched they were advertised in the press as having a capacity of 358 passengers. When the 55m trams were introduced they were advertised as having a capacity of just 408 people.

    That didn't really make much sense as that is less then a 15% increase in stated capacity, while the 55m trams were over 30% longer and TII stated they had 30% more capacity.

    I've seen newer documents from TII that state the 40m trams have a 315 passenger capacity and the 55m 408 people. That makes a lot more sense, 408 is roughly 30% more then 315.

    Basically in the past they used a more dense passenger per sqm measurement and now use a less dense passenger per sqm measurement.

    Of course this is all just stats, it doesn't really change the true capacity of the trams.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 221 ✭✭scrabtom


    I'd like to know how many people are on some of the Red Line Luas's I get on at Museum going in to town on a weekday morning or a Saturday Afternoon.

    I bet it's a fair bit more than 358.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,423 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yes, the above numbers are supposed to be "comfortable" capacity. You can then have a higher crush capacity. I'd love to see peak time numbers from the NTA on different vehicle types, double decker buses, VT class, trams, etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 154 ✭✭OisinCooke


    I really really like this, especially the branch from Ballyboden over to Sandyford for a Metro and GL interchange, it could even be extended either side to Templeogue and Kimage, and out to the DART on the east and form a Luas southern orbital?

    However while I think your route from Tallaght to town is really solid, I almost think that it should be our next candidate for a Metrolink Line 2, rather than a street running tram. It can also continue out through the city core and into other unserved areas of the northside - hell, you could even amalgamate the Luas Balgriffin route and kill two birds with the one metro line?

    I also quite like this as an option, I’ve never thought about it before, you’d get a Red Line link at Busáras and you’d also get (potentially) a Lucan Line link at Ringsend. Could even head down through Sandymount too and hit the DART somewhere too.

    Only issue is you’d miss the Green Line and the metro as well as most of the city centre requiring commuters to change. A direct line into (and ideally through the CC) would be definitely preferable… I do wonder what TFI’s plan is with regards to Luas Balgriffin as soon as it hits Connolly…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,595 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Yeah I think the section from Ballyboden roundabout into the CC should be metro as it’s taking the capacity from the leg heading out to sandyford and the leg from tallaght.

    You could also extend northwards from tallaght up cookstown way towards clondalkin Fonthill heavy rail station and that way you’d be serving the new seven mills development and linking it to tallaght etc.

    further north it could continue to up the R113 and serve Liffey valley.

    So it could be developed into an orbital route of sorts also.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,267 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Only issue is you’d miss the Green Line and the metro as well as most of the city centre requiring commuters to change. 

    Not quite, south of Connolly I envisaged it heading west to cross the Liffey just west of the Loop Line bridge and then down Tara St. A station at the junction of Tara and Pearse St would be within spitting distance of the College Green stop on the Green line.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 154 ✭✭OisinCooke


    Was just at Heuston the other day and was looking at the middle terminating Luas platform. Just wondering if Luas Lucan was built, if they continued the track from the central platform to rejoin the two running lines on the south side of the station, current Connolly to Heuston trams could be continued out to Lucan/in towards the south city centre creating more connectivity.

    And even during peak times, or even only, there could be the odd Lucan or Stephen’s Green/College Green (whichever route they choose) to Heuston service to again, improve connectivity. Is this a likely thing they’d do? Seems like not a lot of work required (just two points at the south end of the Heuston platforms and two more at the junction with the Lucan and Red line at James’ to create a triangle junction allowing trams to continue into town) and would have a good payoff in providing what would be a very useful and doable service. Any thoughts?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,357 ✭✭✭gjim


    The red line is at its capacity limit between Hueston and the centre as it is.

    For every tram you run Connolly to/from Lucan, would mean removing a tram Connolly to/from Tallaght/Citywest. So halving the capacity of an existing 15km alignment between Hueston and Tallaght/Citywest. This is not a good way to spend money on infrastructure.

    And no amount of fiddling around with shuttle services can fix this: feeding two tram lines (Lucan and Tallaght) into a single section which is already at capacity in terms of trams per hour and passengers per tram at peak.

    We need more capacity into and through the core, not more branches feeding into a single already congested/at capacity core alignment.

    Any new Luas alignment coming from that direction needs to go through the centre of the city (in this case say via Thomas St, Dame St, Pearse St) to avoid canabalising earlier investment in tram infrastructure.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,048 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Yep, no more half measures.

    There’s a need to bite the bullet for politicians on more city centre capacity.

    Sadly, that requires leadership.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,424 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Dart underground, that's what's needed... its bend comprehension, with housing, climate and just in general the absolute disgrace, that is public transport on this country, how little is being done ...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 232 ✭✭PlatformNine


    Like others have said Heuston-Connolly is already a massive bottleneck. I think the best thing for TII to focus on for know is new alignments through city centre to increase capacity as much as possible. Especially since there are a lot of untapped routes and connections through CC that would be great for a tramline, and would massively improve light rail connectivity and capacity, making a much stronger network. Two lines through CC is not sustainable, and while eventually I think they will run out of CC alignments, I don't think will happen before Luas post-2042 is complete. Additionally more CC alignments should help shift Dublin away from its bus dependence which also isn't sustainable.

    Personally I am hoping that they will look at a Cork Street-SSG-Ringsend option, or at the very least Cork Street-SSG with a later extension to Ringsend. It would allow there to be no overlap with the Green and Red line except at their interchanges, which would really increase light rail catchment and I think would allow a lot more journies to be Luas-Luas or DART-Luas transfers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 232 ✭✭PlatformNine


    More Luas capacity in general honestly. Our bus network is fairy strong even with all its flaws, and BC will likely do wonders, but our dependence on busses isn't sustainable. I am really hoping that the next transport stategy will push to fast track Luas post-2042, as I can't imagine it wont be needed well before 2042, let alone well after 2042. However despite it being needed I don't think there is the political will in power to do it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 154 ✭✭OisinCooke


    I definitely understand this and agree with what you’re saying, I was just enquiring about the existing Connolly to Heuston shuttles. As they are already taking up a city centre path, would it not make more sense to continue them out beyond Heuston…? I could be missing something glaringly obvious, but just wondering…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,805 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    There's low hanging fruit with the city centre red line. The slow running speeds could be fixed tomorrow and was the result of an overly conservative approach to safety when the Luas was new and people thought it was a danger unlike anything ever seen before. It also doesn't get enough traffic priority at junctions. They could probably close one or two stops. Ultimately they should just cut and cover the whole stretch and space out the stops more.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,529 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    A tram is not a metro - it’s supposed to have more frequent stops.

    I’d love to know which ones you’d remove and why.

    Also, which junctions are you referring to in terms of priority, while recognising the potential knock on effects of what you are suggesting on the city bus service?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,942 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Before tunnelling the luas we need more luas capacity. A second East-West line and perhaps 2 north south lines should be added



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,048 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Well, ML will be another N-S line.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,423 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Given the success of the bus gate on the quays and how fast buses are moving on the quays now, here is my suggestion.

    Run a BRT (single decker multi door bendi bus) from Heuston to Connolly along the quays. Pretty quick and easy to implement and it would have the advantage of not putting extra strain on the red Luas line (and actually take some off).

    It would be popular with people getting too and from Heuston as you wouldn't be competing for space with people going to/from Lucan or Tallaght. You would be getting on an empty bus at Heuston, you could even have it serve platform 10 in Heuston. You could even possibly extend it through the port tunnel to Dublin Airport (Yes I know complaints from DC/Aircoach).

    You could do it with double Deckers too, but less attractive.

    Of course this would only be a "short term" quick fix that could be implemented in a few months. Longer term, you could plan on upgrading this service to another Luas line. Yes, run a Luas line down the quays! It could be used by both Luas and buses.

    You would be adding East to West capacity, Lucan and Tallaght trams could split between going down the quays or the current red line.

    Had we to do the Red Line over again, it would have had made more sense to make the quays a Luas + Bus + bike/pedestrian only corridor and put the cars heading to the car parks down Abbey Street. In retrospect it makes much more sense, the fact they left the cars on the quays and routed the red line down basically back streets showed the thinking at the time that cars ruled and public transport was something to be pushed off to the side.

    With cars greatly reduced on the quays, they are a fantastic opportunity to massively increase East to West capacity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,295 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    If a Luas line was on one side of the quays, another Luas line on the Thomas Street to College Green axis, access for the few cars that would need to come into the city could be two-way on the other quay.

    All north-south through traffic would cross the East Link, West-Link or the South Circular Road.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,413 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    Maybe not feasible currently (infrastructure constraints around Heuston), but this could even take on the responsibility of the 99 to provide a Phoenix Park to Connolly connection. Obviously not if the end goal is to head towards the airport, though.



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