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2 out of 3 young adults living at home

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    #242
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,828 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132631#Comment_122132631

    Can you back this up at all? Housing shouldn't be an investment. It's a basic need.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #243
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,229 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132860#Comment_122132860

    Back what up?

    Without investment, who would provide rental properties?



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    #244
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,828 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133016#Comment_122133016

    Nothing, then.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #245
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,666 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132860#Comment_122132860

    Housing is a basic need, however ownership of a commodity or asset (ie home ownership) is not.



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    #246
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,229 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133047#Comment_122133047

    It would help to know what you are asking.



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    #247
    CorkRed93
    Registered Users Posts: 3,562 ✭✭✭CorkRed93


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132603#Comment_122132603

    dont forget the BTL landlords. Horrible product that has done a lot of damage on this side of the world.



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    #248
    swampgas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,537 ✭✭✭swampgas


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132860#Comment_122132860

    The unfortunate reality is that what we might call "basic needs" are many, and they aren't always cheap to provide. Housing, healthcare, transport, education, adequate food, safe drinking water, sanitation - there are many basic needs, and some of them are easier to provide than others. It's not easy to find a consensus for global provision of these services, given the basic inequality of life, and that communism failed politically. Housing is more difficult than many of the others because of the capital required, and the time lag to getting anything built.

    Housing has always been an investment, in some way. Whether it's a subsistence farmer building a small farmhouse on his own land, or a developer building a housing estate, housing of any kind is an investment because significant resources are required to create it, and because housing has significant value to those who use it. There is obviously also the factor of land ownership, because housing needs to be built somewhere, and land is a large component of housing value.

    We should never waste a good crisis, though, and maybe it takes a crisis for people to change their minds on what they want. Some attitudes I've seen in Ireland that I think feed the current problems:

    • An obsession with 3-bed semis with front and back garden, in the suburbs.
    • An irrational dislike of well-built apartments.
    • Wanting to buy a "forever house" as a first time buyer, and never moving again, rather than buying a starter home and moving up/down in size as family requirements change.
    • Refusing to consider renting as something that should be viable, long term, at reasonable expense.

    There are loads of empty or under-utilised properties around the country too. In my opinion, Ireland needs to start seeing housing as a shared, collective resource, rather than something that is purely the concern of a single owner or family. Until that happens (and I see massive resistance to any suggestion of shared, collective responsibility here) we are stuck, and have to wait for the housing stock to build up slowly over time, as market forces allow, and having to wait a decade or more before things start to improve much.



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    #249
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,825 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133270#Comment_122133270

    we are stuck, and have to wait for the housing stock to build up slowly over time, as market forces allow

    Market forces alone would be building far, far faster than what we are currently allowing.

    I understand the attitude towards any notion of free market thinking, but while it can and does cause problems, it is categorically not the problem right now.



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    #250
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,918 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133127#Comment_122133127

    Exactly, all these leeches pretending to be doing people a favour. Increasingly regular people can't get a sniff of a house or apartment just to purchase to, you know, live in.



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    #251
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,229 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133520#Comment_122133520

    Seriously, Is that sarcasm, or do you not understand the need for a rental sector?

    For all those who do not want to buy, are not ready to buy, cannot afford to buy, where do they live without BTL’s.



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    #252
    victor8600
    Registered Users Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭victor8600


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133669#Comment_122133669

    Council housing? Purpose built student accommodation? Regulated private renting firms? BTL landlords are rarely professionals, IMO it is strange that one expects a non-qualified person to provide a good quality vital service. Do you buy your meat from people growing pigs in their own allotments? You could, but you taking a risk. Same with individual landlords, are they Garda vetted at least?



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    #253
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,976 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133364#Comment_122133364

    ….so free market fundamentals such as financialisation havent played any role in our current situation?



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    #254
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,229 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133836#Comment_122133836

    Good God, why would LLs need to be Garda vetted?



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    #255
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,828 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133875#Comment_122133875

    What are you on about?

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #256
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,976 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133364#Comment_122133364

    …what are you on about!

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133885#Comment_122133885



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    #257
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,825 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133875#Comment_122133875

    I wouldn't dismiss anything as having played no role. However I don't particularly agree with your issues with "financialisation" being a primary cause because a)I don't fully know what you mean by it, and b)the primary cause is not building enough housing, and that is as a result of interfering in the free market, not because of it.

    Was the Crash caused by too much property being bought on unsecured credit? Sure, in large part. But people have been buying things on credit since time immemorial and spikes and crashes have been a function of the world for as long as recorded history exists (albeit not that they always recognised it as such).



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    #258
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,825 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133669#Comment_122133669

    Well, large scale Build-to-let run by competent management companies would be far, far better than individual BTL landlords using tenants to pay off their asset for them.



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    #259
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 19,917 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132224#Comment_122132224

    And the obvious problem with apartments is that they are 51% more expensive than houses of the same floor area. A €450K apartment gets you a €300K house. That €150K difference buys you a lot of commuting.

    This is why urban sprawl is the defacto standard development pattern worldwide where there is land available to sprawl into.



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    #260
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 19,917 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133364#Comment_122133364

    Market forces can only build faster if there is the labour capacity available to do so. I was just reading something relating to this same issue in Australia, and the complaint made was that the rate of housing construction was being hindered by government spending on infrastructure, which was tying up labour resources because the customer just pays more for labour to get priority.



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    #261
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,229 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133936#Comment_122133936

    Why on earth would that be the case?

    I do agree in some respects with you in that it is time for owners with only a few properties to exit the market and leave it to the corporates. Of course that would most likely mean much higher rents as corporates in some cases would prefer to leave properties empty rather than rent at below projected rent price.

    The last bit is just more nonsense and begrudgery. Whether you like it or not, most rentals in Ireland are owned by owners with a small number of properties, and just in case you put forward the fallacy that if they weren’t rented, more people could buy, a house shared by 4 tenants but bought by 1-2 buyers leaves a deficit of 2-3 people without accomadation on that one property alone.



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    #262
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,470 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132400#Comment_122132400

    Did you live in an apartment during COVID by any chance?

    Apartments are part of the solution but they need to be fit for purpose. We have a torrid history of building fit for purpose apartment's in this country. We also can't say that we are the same as southern Europe when it comes to living. There are numbers of apartments there but they have better public open spaces in general and better weather specifically making you aren't couped up for long spells.

    They are probably more of a partial solution to the rental crisis in our cities but not something we can compare with elsewhere.

    While lots of adults live at home there are parts of the country where there aren't

    People are generally in secondary school till almost twenty nowadays and with the increases on college places many people and parents chose for their kids to remain at home. It's the years after college that need to be tackled if that is as big a deal as it is being portrayed.

    Living at home for a couple of years while working should mean you can save for something resembling a deposit. So why is that not happening? Another question that needs assessing..…



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    #263
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,825 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122134018#Comment_122134018

    Why on earth would that be the case?

    Because it should be a job, not a money-making hobby.

    Of course that would most likely mean much higher rents as corporates in some cases would prefer to leave properties empty rather than rent at below projected rent price.

    This is not backed up by anything. Corporates would be far more likely to reduce rent below expectations as opposed to being obsessed with covering their mortgage. While they may leave places empty briefly, when they realise the SnD is not supporting their rent demands they will just lower them. The market doesn't cease to exist because properly functioning bodies are engaged in it.

    I'm not putting forth any such fallacy. I would prefer sufficient proper lettable properties were built. It is also not begrudgery, it is pointing out the flaws in a system that essentially just rewards those with capital with ever increasing assets. It blows my mind that buy-to-let mortgages are a thing.



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    #264
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,825 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133969#Comment_122133969

    I am skeptical of those numbers, but regardless the space isn't there to build enough houses. And urban sprawl has some pretty horrendous environmental impacts on top of everything else.



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    #265
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,229 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122134039#Comment_122134039

    If there isn’t any prospect of a return on investment, why would anyone invest in anything?

    Built by who if there was no one willing to invest?

    This is wildly crazy nonsense, it really seems like you have visions of a communist era state where everyone lives in a state provided house and capitalism is eschewed.

    The prospect of what would exist if there weren’t any rentals because no one invested for profit must be like a detonation in your brain if that is the case. Imagine the prospect of the hundreds of thousands of renters having to wait for the State to build a rental property every time it is needed, and the cost that would be involved. Good grief.



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    #266
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,825 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122134066#Comment_122134066

    You have gotten the complete wrong end of the stick then.

    We are seeing more of them already, but apartment complexes built as "build to let" are what I am suggesting. While I don't expect a disappearance of individual landlords (people have spare property at times after all), it should be mandatory to be run through a management company. Individual "investors" provide very little in terms of liquidity or functionality to the rental market and often provide pretty terrible service.

    There is no shortage of people looking to build.



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    #267
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,053 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133079#Comment_122133079

    A "home" really shouldn't be viewed as an "asset" or a "commodity".

    That kind of "thinking" is exactly the reason we're in such an appalling state re: housing.



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    #268
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,229 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122134145#Comment_122134145

    Is your house worthless?



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    #269
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,053 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122134204#Comment_122134204

    I don't know what it's worth and I don't care.

    My house is my "home". It's something I live in and will be for the foreseeable future.



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    #270
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,229 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122134213#Comment_122134213

    But you understand that if it has value, and you own it, it is an asset?

    Put more simply, if the situation arose where you had to raise money, you could sell your home. Ergo, it is an asset you can sell.



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    #271
    Terrier2023
    Registered Users Posts: 141 ✭✭Terrier2023


    I firmly think that this is the generation that the WEF are targeting as there is a housing crisis everywhere for the age group well educated yet a bit stupid some of them cant even drive and dont want to , they are not self sufficient cant do many practical things like check the oil in a car change a plug etc. Owning nothing & being happy is strictly for them and all that come after them. they prioritize the wrong things and march for **** that they can do nothing about & is not relevent to them. They hold their banners refugees welcome while the refugees get homes right under their liberal noses !! They were spoilt by parents who felt guilty about not being there & their entitled attitude thus makes them fools in society !



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