SEAI Fuel Cost Comparison posters at petrol stations

zg3409

From:

https://www.seai.ie/technologies/electric-vehicles/fuel-cost-comparison/index.xml

Petrol stations with three or more fuel pumps have been told they must start displaying a sign showing the difference in their prices compared with the electric alternative within weeks.

*Blended rate of charging - 90% at home (night rate) and 10% public (fast charge)

Needless to say petrol stations without EV chargers are not happy.

JVince

I see the idea, but frankly it should be the seai doing a weekly press release and advert rather than waste retailers time with something almost all people will ignore.

Retailers have enough crap to do already without yet another "do it or we screw you" obligation.

Buddy Bubs

So much wrong with this.....

I'm fully EV committed but I think this is an absolutely stupid idea, I see what they're trying to achieve but it's so variable and unrepresentative it's ridiculous. Even the attempt at putting C segment in there is a joke, nearly all EVs are SUV types.

I see some merit in comparing prices of purchasing different fuels in that particular station but I own 2 EVs where one uses at least 50% more electricity than another and I don't have night rate or even a home charger. I do have a work charger I don't personally pay for but that's a special case.

So I don't have access to those low night rates, and either do many others. Plus it increases the cost of cooking your dinner in the evening, or working from home.

And is it a physical poster or what is it? Do they change every time petrol, diesel and electricity changes price?

It's too heavily weighted towards best case EV costs

jack of all

Another way to rub the noses in it of those motorists who can't afford to make the change yet. The SEAI should also consider compelling those who live in A rated homes to put up a placard to let everyone know how little it costs to heat compared to the rest of the housing stock!

prawnsambo

Putting this stuff up while reducing grants is peak "It's not us, it's you".

Gumbo

Silly advertising.

It’s pointless and will never be accurate.

It could cost me €2 or €10 to travel 100km depending on where i charged.

The tin foil hat brigade will be on spouting about it now with at least one social media dealer.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908111#Comment_121908111

nothing Wrong with reducing grants. Prices have fallen significantly.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908111#Comment_121908111

Grants should be gone. Artificially inflating prices for the manufacturers. Remove them and make the manufacturers fight for better prices.

the_amazing_raisin

I think it's a great idea personally, it'll finally put to bed the idea that EVs are more expensive to run than petrol cars

For those fuel stations that aren't happy about displaying it, maybe they could pull the finger out and install some EV chargers

Busman Paddy Lasty

Worst idea ever. For a filling station that doesn't sell CNG, LPG and a 9:1 blend of night rate:fast charging electricity - it's literally none of their business.

SEAI should buy some advertising or be proactive some other way.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908232#Comment_121908232

Yeah, fair point.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908075#Comment_121908075

If they'd used SUVs then the fuel prices would have gone up as well. The important thing isn't the costs themselves so much as the ratio of the difference.

As long as they used the same basis of comparison between vehicles and fuel types then it's fair comparison

To flip it another way, there was a pretty notorious study years ago that showed EVs were more polluting than petrol cars. Turned out they compared a Model X to something like a Honda Jazz, assumed the electricity was generated using something like 100% coal and didn't take the lifecycle emissions of the petrol into account

The point being that a group with an agenda (funnily enough, the study was supported by the oil industry) can manipulate statistics to suit their needs

The comparison here is based on an EU standard for comparing fuel types. While it isn't perfect, it's a generally fair comparison

teediddlyeye

I can see where they're coming from and I like the idea, the amount of people that think their 55mpg diesel is just as cheap to run as night rate changing. 🤣

Wrong way to go about it though. Are they gonna change the sign every quarter?

BrianD3

Presumably, they'll also be mandating signs at charging points telling people how little (if anything) they're saving compared to fuelling a combustion vehicle

https://esb.ie/what-we-do/ecars/price-plans

64.7 cent per kWh for a fast charge. If we assume 16 kWh/100 km, that's over 10 euros which is more than their estimated cost for a diesel car.

I also look forward to sellers of EVs being fined for not advertising how much cheaper a petrol Dacia Sandero is and how much longer its range is.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908380#Comment_121908380

To be fair, they've included 10% public charging in their pricing. Whether that's an accurate percentage or not is another argument.

jonnygee

If I was a filling station owner I would put a second sign up under the seai one in the same font and colour but showing the cost of driving 100kms after charging at a public charger.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908457#Comment_121908457

Even if it is an accurate percentage, home charging rates are not available at public charging stations. Let's say you are the operator of the Texaco in Ballinalack, Co. Westmeath. I've picked this station as I know there is an Ecars fast charger on site. Why should you be mandated to advertise that it costs 3.18 euros to run an EV for 100 km when it would actually cost ~10 euros using the charger that is less than 50 metres from your pumps.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908506#Comment_121908506

I get what you're saying and the fact that it's compulsory is very problematic imo. But purely on an informational basis, it's not wrong. Very few people charge their EVs solely on the public network. The small print that states that it's a mix should be a lot more prominent too.

JVince

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908111#Comment_121908111

In fairness the grants simply made prices stay high and gave motor dealers and distributors huge margins.

Grant came off and prices magically dropped.

elperello

From a business point of view it seems a bit strange to make an outlet advertise the benefits of something they don't sell.

Mantis Toboggan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908232#Comment_121908232

And so have sales

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908687#Comment_121908687

Market share has fallen, sales are still up

Padraig Mor

What a load of nanny state shite! (Four time EV owner here).

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908687#Comment_121908687

That’s incorrect.

tlaavtech

Advertise a cost of fuelling at a garage that you actually pay significantly more for at the same location. Makes no sense.

I like the idea of promoting the cost savings of electric but this is not the way.

I save €10/100km in my i3 compared to my old Insignia. That's a really stark stat.

Buddy Bubs

Now I've had a few hours to digest this, had it been written into law?

What's to stop a petrol station refusing to do it or also putting up anti EV posters around the place?

I just can't see this happening or being workable

No mention of where the posters will have to be put, no mention of how often they need to be updated

Loads of easy ways out of this as far as I can tell now

Casati

Unless it's a comparison of forecourt cost for petrol or diesel versus forecourt prices for EV then it makes no sense. It's completely misleading for the consumer- akin to forcing restaurants to list on the menu the cost of the food if you bought it in a supermarket.

I do feel SEAI could use this to help force down the price of charging at public chargers if they used real life forecourt charging costs- if the poster showed clearly the real cost of forecourt charing per 100km versus the cost of forecourt petrol or diesel per 100km, it could have the potential result of forcing retailers to get more competitive with public charger rates.

SEAI are also in dream land using a 10% number to represent charging at public chargers- their own website states its already 20%, and we know that most early EV buyers are people who can install a home charger. They also do not include any charing losses which are typically 10% to 15%.

If EV sales are to increase in market share to the level SEAI want, public charging could potentially be needed for 30% to 50% of EV charging, and will have to be affordable. People need public charger for many reasons - travelling long distances beyond the range of their car, for the 30% of people renting houses where landlords might not want to entertain charger installation works, apartment dwellers and houses without private parking for whom installing a home charger is not possible etc. I think its clear also that the environmental impact of large battery ev's needs to be assessed- we have ended up with typical family cars weighing 2200kg wearing down roads and adding tyre pollution where small ev's with range big enough for daily driving coupled with competitive decent public charging is a better option.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908577#Comment_121908577

If you have a tank at home you can get cheaper petrol or diesel but very few people have tanks so they rely on public fuel stations. There are so many different tariffs and discounts available for domestic electricity someone who is proactive with swapping providers every 12 months could be paying substantially less than someone who hasn't changed in 3 years, how does the chart cover that?

When I'm on the road I'd rather know how much a kW will cost me at station A vs station B. Or when there is 2 supplier's at a station how much I'm paying at each. Plugshare isn't always right and it's dangerous to be interacting with your phone or car map when driving to find out how much it'll cost you to charge.

Have EV charging stations advertise their price and speed instead of some BS formula that isn't relevant if you are using a public charger.

zg3409

Based on SEAI own figures if you pay 54c/kWh or more Diesel is cheaper. So with the likes of Apple green branded chargers at 73c/kWh a full table would list their EV "fuel" as most expensive option for those with say a PHEV who could pick electric or non electric fuels.

If they insist on this table then EV "pumps" should have to display actual prices with a comparison table. c/L equivalent would be an easier metric to start comparisons.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908829#Comment_121908829

Look like this is it.

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2022/si/703/made/en/pdf

And there is reference to this in the SI.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32018R0732#:~:text=Commission%20Implementing%20Regulation%20(EU)%202018,(Text%20with%20EEA%20relevance.%20)

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908829#Comment_121908829

Follow link to seai website. It lists references to the law, poster size etc etc.

drunkmonkey

All eyes on Maxol in Kilgarvin, can't wait to see how the Healy-Rae's react to this one.

It's completely misleading price wise, it should show the price comparison if the garage also sells Electricity. Any place not selling electricity shouldn't be included in the mandate.

I've a phev with one of the cheapest 24hr rates on the market and 100km costs €9.72. That same 100km would cost €28.44 charging at Circle K.

The government's focus should be on reducing energy prices not nonsense like this.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908312#Comment_121908312

the funny part is that it’s 55mpg on motorways but far less on school runs etc

Buddy Bubs

My local pub has food and drink prices displayed, should they have the price of making that dinner at home and going to the off licence displayed too?

As I said, I'm full EV no intention of going back but I think this is just bonkers

mackerski

If they are going to require this (and I acknowledge all the comments about how subjective the numbers are), forecourts that have their own electric charging should be required to show an additional data field showing the cost based on their own forecourt electricity price. Practically all petrol station own-branded chargers seem to be a rip off.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908577#Comment_121908577

It's very wrong.

If the station or parent company has EV charging then that's the price that should be displayed.

Might be better to display the km needing to be travelled to break even when investing in an EV.

timmyntc

Could ASAI get involved given that the proposed claims are inaccurate/unclear? (Price of forecourt charging differs hugely to 90:10 at home mix)

drunkmonkey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121909737#Comment_121909737

That's exactly what I see happening, any station with a poster like that displayed and EV chargers onsite is engaging in false advertising.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121909826#Comment_121909826

Except it's not advertising is it? No specific product is being advertised. It's informational.

drunkmonkey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121909843#Comment_121909843

Maybe not advertising standards but it would fall under the consumer protection act. It's deliberately misleading as you can't achieve that milage for that price from the station selling electricity with a poster saying you can.

crl84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121909737#Comment_121909737

How are they inaccurate?

monseiur

Yet another bright idea from cloud cuckoo land, I would hazard a guess that Eamon Ryan & co. was behind it. He is such a genius - how will we survive at all at all when he and his party are obliterated next election😁 Unfortunately a lot more irreparable damage will be done in the meantime.

crl84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121909948#Comment_121909948

It's an EU regulation, it's literally in the links in the OP. I guess you were too preoccupied thinking about Big Bad Boogeyman Ryan to read.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121909948#Comment_121909948

It’s surprising how much work Eamon seems to do. Especially when the people crediting him with the work also go on about him been asleep.

cannco253

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/fuel-retailers-furious-over-new-price-comparison-poster/a1136519463.html

“Petrol stations are being given three options for how they display the Fuel Price Comparison. It can be an A3-sized poster displayed near the pumps, an A2-sized poster at the entrance or within the shop, or on a 19in screen which shows the information for a minimum of 20 seconds per minute.

Retailers are angry at the requirement, and met the SEAI last Tuesday to make their displeasure known.

The Convenience Stores and Newsagents Association (CSNA), a representative body, said that apart from the added costs, it was unfair to make retailers tell their customers that a rival product was better value.”

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121910942#Comment_121910942

The article there outlines the real reason for the objections - it highlights the reality that fuelling an EV in the way that most EV drivers do costs substantially less than fuelling a diesel or petrol car in the way that drivers of those cars normally do.

This location has been chosen because it is the point of economic pain for drivers. Seeing that an EV can be fuelled for typically 64% less than diesel might catch a few eyes after putting €130 in the tank. The obvious fear here for retailers is that this will cost them customers - which is obviously the intended goal.

The problem is though that those customers are going to go anyway as it is currently and will remain the policy to electrify the national fleet.

Yes it's unfair that forecourts will have to host this information, but it's not unheard of for products that government desire the population to stop using carry discouraging messages on their packaging and at point of sale.

The EV has been losing the media war of late and I can see a measure like this backfiring. It will get a certain cohorts backs up aided and abetted by media.

MojoMaker

But look at all the new non-EV drivers this thread has brought over to the EV forum.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911487#Comment_121911487

This thread has actually done more to discourage than the (misleading) campaign would have, as it's been pointed out here several times that forecourt EV chargers cost more per 100km than petrol or diesel!

ColemanY2K

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911909#Comment_121911909

it has also been pointed out very few EV drivers solely use forecourt (public chargers).

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911909#Comment_121911909

Whatever you think but the notice going up in forecourts doesn't seem to match your claim and that is what people will be reading. The obvious intent is to change peoples mindset in relation to EVs - when they continually read that it would cost less to drive the same distance, they will be more likely to consider switching when the time comes.

ELM327

I've been driving EV since 2016, and I hate the nonsense being peddled by this sign. It should only be the cost of fast charging. EVs are a cheaper product, we don't need to lie. Lying in such ways only feeds into the people who are anti EV as they can actually disprove these signs.