SEAI Fuel Cost Comparison posters at petrol stations

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913860#Comment_121913860

It’s. Very fair as it a realistic comparison.

the very large price board garages are made to display can display price per litre and per kWh.

pah

Ok then, the fine print states 90/10 home/public for ev charge. Why does the fine print not include average fuel price or based on consumption average of X l per 100km. Way too many variables IMO to be captured in one poster with essentially 3 numbers to compare.

Seth Brundle

Way too many variables IMO to be captured in one poster with essentially 3 numbers to compare.

...which is probably why they've kept the methodology quite simple!

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121912745#Comment_121912745

"A lot of people here..." Planks, own eye, etc come to mind. I think it's reasonably clear what Elm is saying. You are the one that's failing to comprehend his point.

Also, has it occurred to you that if your premise is true that many people's reading comprehension is poor on an internet bulletin board where they come to read (which I don't believe, but let's run with your premise) then it's going to be an awful lot worse for people passing by a sign at a filling station while engaged in their regular fill. Many, many people will assume the station owner is advertising goods for sale there. Very few will read the small print. It's misleading at best and disingenuous. Surely the fact that so many EV owners are against it, should indicate it's a bad (implementation of an) idea.

I would have no problem with the poster if instead of "Electric*" in the main font, they had put "Home Charging".

MojoMaker

Yup, anything to weaken the argument so that the mindset shift doesn't have to happen just yet. Nothing to see here, keep lobbing the liquid into the tank 👍️

We need urgent change at a global level, starting with concerted change at a national level. We need to leave fossil fuels well behind and move on. Even if there is a cost to to us personally to move on - we've left it too late to be choosy.

BrianD3

Has anyone gone through the legislation and studied the "common methodology" that the SEAI has to use when doing its price comparisons. Have they the option of including a price comparison for 100% public charging. If they do have the option and are choosing not to include it on posters, that is a farcical lack of transparency but also not surprising. The ESB gets to do what it wants and has its own agenda as does the SEAI. Optics are everything, Given the government's stated aim to have x number of EVs on the road, we can't have posters showing that public charging at ESB charging points results in little or no savings compared to fossil fuels.

As can be seen by the recent referendum result, the population may not be as stupid as our "authorities" think they are, and spin and manipulation to achieve a desired result can be counterproductive.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121916118#Comment_121916118

What proportion of EV owners do 100% of their charging at public locations?

Honestly, the bother some posters are letting themselves get into over this is farcical

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121916118#Comment_121916118

It's not the SEAI or ESB who are deciding this.

The charging mix of 90%/10% is likely based on data from existing EV owners, the indicative price shown on the poster show's prices that are indicative of the actual experience of EV drivers. How much of your own EV charging is performed at home?

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121916169#Comment_121916169

Responses like this show why the state and its authorities often get away with spin and manipulation, not just in the realm of transport but other areas as well. "Ah shur nobody uses the public charging points" say the zealots - now stop making a fuss about lack of transparency regarding the high prices being charged for public charging by a public sector body. Nothing to see here.

Another example of the comical stuff that we see all the time anyone criticises EVs - with the responses being changed to suit the criticism

Criticism: EVS have limited range

Response: There are public charging points everywhere

Criticism: Public charging is expensive

Response: Just charge at home on night rate

Criticism: Evs are expensive

Response: Just buy a 10 year old Leaf or Fluence ZE for a couple of grand (but let's conveniently forget to mention the tiny range from the degraded battery, exacerbating the potential reliance on public charging)

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121916262#Comment_121916262

I'm not an EV owner nor am I likely to change my current diesel car in the next few years.

That said, I can clearly see the financial benefit to people when they have an EV and if anything this benefit will improve as the cost of petrol & diesel increase in time.

My responses within this thread are not based on "spin and manipulation" and it is pretty daft to think that some government conspiracy is behind this.

Plus I note that you didn't answer my question on thr percentage of EV owners than only use public charging.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121916118#Comment_121916118

Methodology and basis for same are here: https://www.seai.ie/publications/Fuel-Cost-Comparison-Methodology.pdf

Required website under the SI is here: https://www.seai.ie/technologies/electric-vehicles/fuel-cost-comparison/

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121916330#Comment_121916330

It doesn't matter what the percentage is. If this was done in a transparent manner, they'd have an extra line on the posters showing the public charging costs. This might also have the effect of putting pressure on the ESB to reduce its public charging rates.

So yes, this looks like spin to achieve a desired outcome i.e. more EVs on the road while attempting to hide the cost of public charging. I worked in the public service for years in technical and management roles and have seen this type of thing on numerous occasions from the inside. Nothing illegal, just "interpretation" and a creative approach to statistics. If it suits to publish a unit price for something, do that. If it suits to publish costs based on usage patterns (as in this case) then do that instead.

However as I haven't read the EU common methodology I don't know how prescriptive and rigid it is, it may be the case that the SEAI's hands are tied on this. Nothing to stop the ESB voluntarily putting up posters beside its charging points showing how much it costs to drive 100 km vs other fuels. I won't hold my breath while I await that.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121916582#Comment_121916582

The poster (as per the directive) is meant to show indicative costs per fuel type. It's not meant to show worst case scenario's such as only buying petrol at high-cost motorway service areas.

The directive is intended to inform people who do not drive alternative fuelled vehicles as to the "expected" per 100km cost of alternatives. They are publishing prices based on typical usage because that's the intent of the directive.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121916609#Comment_121916609

The Electric Ireland domestic night rate is about 15 cent per kWh and some plans are cheaper. The public fast charge rate is set at 59-65 cent per kWh. So unless motorway petrol stations are charging over 4 times the price per litre as cheaper stations (would work out at over 7 euros per litre) then the comparison above is bogus.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121916330#Comment_121916330

Likely not many, because early adopters of EVs are overwhelmingly likely to have access to home charging. It's the main draw to buying an EV.

The posters give the misleading impression at a glance that EV charging is that price when in actual fact it's 90% home charging on night rate is that price. The 90:10 split isn't displayed nearly clear enough given the very brief amount of time people will look at these posters, so they are prone to being misinformed.

Also part of the reason so few EV owners exclusively public charge is because it's so expensive. If you don't have access to off street parking it makes little economic sense to buy one. That reality should be reflected to consumers too because EVs will not suit everyone's needs.

crl84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121916262#Comment_121916262

Says the guy who can't even be arsed reading the documentation, and wants someone else to study the legislation and tell them what their opinion should be.

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121916698#Comment_121916698

It's not a bogus comparison at all. If on average an EV driver charges at domestic night rates 90% of the time, and charges 10% of the time at publicly available DC charges what is their average cost per 100km?

This is what the poster is designed to show, indicative costs based on actual statistics compiled by the Central Statistics Office. Why do you think the poster should not show expected costs and instead costs based on an unrealistic charging spread. Is it because you don't believe that consumers should be given information?

crl84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121916582#Comment_121916582

Should they also have costs for a 1L Fiesta?

And another line for a 3L Merc?

And another for a Hiace?

And another for a 3T truck?

The vast majority of EV drivers charger at home almost exclusively.

Why are you OK with stats for average use of petrol/diesel vehicles?

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121916878#Comment_121916878

But if the intent is to inform consumers about alternatively field vehicles, surely it makes sense to also inform them of the costs of public charging, seeing as many may not have access to home charging.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121916878#Comment_121916878

Eh, look at the poster again, it specially says C segment reference car, now compare the font size to that used for the 90/10 assumption. Even if someone doesn't know what a C segment car is (do you know) there is a transparency there.

Also, if you take every C segment car on sale, the difference in their WLTP ratings for each fuel type will not be huge. Whereas the difference between domestic electricity night rates and public charging rates is huge - as I said above, equivalent to a motorway petrol station charging over 7 euros per litre for petrol.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121916831#Comment_121916831

Oh it's a bogus comparison alright. The use of posters with indicative costs based on usage (when there is a huge difference in unit prices) is spin and goes against basic principles of transparency and consumer protection.

Indicative costs have their place - e.g. when the CSO publishes its inflation figures that is based on averages and a basket of goods.

Should shops be mandated to put up posters based on this? If a petrol station was charging 7 euros per litre, should there be posters at the shop telling consumers that it will cost x amount to travel 100 km with in, very small print underneath, a disclaimer that this is based on purchasing 90% of their fuel at a station which charges 1.70 per litre because that's what "most people do".

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121917130#Comment_121917130

There isn't an EU regulation to give indicative costs of comparative shopping baskets because there isn't a policy decision to educate people about alternative grocery choices.

There is a policy decision to increase consumer education on the running costs of alternatively fueled vehicles, as many people seem to not have much knowledge on the topic.

You've not answered either of my questions on how much of your EV charging is done at home, or why you think consumers should not be informed of average costs on a poster that shows average costs.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121917271#Comment_121917271

Ah right, now we're appealing to authority, it was a "policy decision", therefore it's fine, nothing to see here.

I have already explained my reasoning why I don't agree with this, at least in the context where the ESB is charging 65 cents per kWh for public fast charging. As for how much of my charging is done at home, the answer to this is I don't own an EV, this isn't the gotcha you think it is but nice try anyway. Another bingo moment from the EV zealot playbook.

Off to Tesco now to buy some groceries and if I see any posters with prices based on the average shopper doing 90% of their shopping in LIDL, I'll be ignoring them.

A

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121917541#Comment_121917541

The intent of the poster is to inform people who don't have an alternative fuelled vehicle yet of the expected running costs if they do switch. Instead of learning something new about EV driving you've decided to ignore completely the expected costs and instead complain that costs should be based on some completely different scenario that doesn't match the gathered statistics on electric motoring costs.

Most people will ignore the posters, some will be curious and look deeper. I don't understand why anybody would be upset that information compiled by the CSO doesn't match their imagined use case. By only showing a DC charging cost it sounds like you want to mislead drivers, is your intent to prevent consumers from having information that they can use to make an informed decision?

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121916113#Comment_121916113

I don't think anybody wants to weaken the argument. What we want really is more honesty and better relayed information in this situation

Saying it's a 90:10 private:public electricity price is all well and good but realistically very few will achieve this ratio. Better, I think to give figures that the majority of people will use and let the people find the savings themselves so it should read

The price of doing 100km

Petrol: €10.04 (5.8L)

Diesel: €8.95 (5.2L)

Price at ecars DC charger €10.23 (15kWh)

Price on Electric Ireland home 24h rate €4.08 (15kWh)

Maybe an allowance for petrol stations to show the cost based on their own prices would be no harm either

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121917999#Comment_121917999

I think it's daft to give the 24hr rate if the majority of people are at least charging at night rates (never mind the really cheap smart 3hr EV plans), and I'd be very surprised if most current EV drivers are not doing 90% of charging at home. Night rates are available to all consumers, so I think it's ok to use those prices.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121917999#Comment_121917999

I don't see how you can say a 90:10 ratio is unrealistic without any data to back that up whereas the SEAI have used CSO data. Everybody's use case is different, but how far off can that figure actually be in your mind? I heard a motoring journalist on the radio yesterday say it would be more realistic to say 80:20 (with no actual data to back that up). Bearing in mind that many people also charge at work (likely free or at worst subsidised) and many others may charge exclusively at home.

And even if you did take the 80:20 ratio, it's still going to be well cheaper than the equivalent petrol or diesel car. That extra 10% would equote to €1.30 at eCars fast charge rates less the equivalent home charge rate, so around about €1 extra. Is that really significant?

cnocbui

More cost increase inducing nonsense from the Irish civil service which i shall be ranting over at the next incumbent party canvassers when they come to my door looking for a vote.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121918122#Comment_121918122

EU directive 2014/94. Which we're very late implementing.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121917900#Comment_121917900

Learning something new about EV driving can you drop the condescension please. FYI, while I may not own an EV, I've purchased and driven them on behalf of employers and was also involved in the rollout of public charging points years ago.

I'm pro EV albeit disappointed that they haven't come down more in price and progressed more in range.

Change the posters so that there are entries for diesel, petrol, 100% home charging and 100% public charging. Then let consumers make up their own minds. Alternatively or in addition, ESB needs to substantially decrease its rates for public charging.

These posters are spin. Whether it is a "policy decision" or a choice by the SEAI doesn't really matter, the posters are attempting to encourage a particular outcome using a particular methodology while hiding inconvenient information from the consumer under the guise of indicative pricing. EV zealots see this and think it is great as it validates their choices. Concerns about consumer protection and lack of transparency get dismissed.