SEAI Fuel Cost Comparison posters at petrol stations

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121918130#Comment_121918130

You are confusing 'must' with 'should'.

(51) Simple and easy-to-compare information on the prices of different fuels could play an important role in enabling vehicle users to better evaluate the relative cost of individual fuels available on the market. Therefore, when fuel prices are displayed at a fuel station, in particular for natural gas and hydrogen, it should be possible for unit price comparison to conventional fuels, such as ‘1 petrol litre equivalent’, to be displayed for informa­tion purposes.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121918145#Comment_121918145

The purpose of the poster is to inform people who don't know about the expected costs so it's correct to say people will learn something new.

It's currently extremely rare for an EV driver to rely 100% on public charging, so to present information in that way is falsely representing the costs of motoring.

It's not spin to present information that has been derived from data collected by the CSO.

Most EV drivers, including myself, have said that the posters should also include the extra information, but an expected average should absolutely be included as the "standard scenario"

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121916118#Comment_121916118

A small minority make public charge 100%

90/10 is a very fair representation.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121918265#Comment_121918265

That 'should' has nothing to do with the implementation of the directive. It's to do with the methodology. Specifically the ease and possible methods of displaying price differentials. It's also in the preamble to the directive, not the directive itself, of which Article 7 applies to these signs.

1. Without prejudice to Directive 2009/30/EC, Member States shall ensure that relevant, consistent and clear information is made available as regards those motor vehicles which can be regularly fuelled with individual fuels placed on the market, or recharged by recharging points. Such information shall be made available in motor vehicle manuals, at refuelling and recharging points, on motor vehicles and in motor vehicle dealerships in their territory. This requirement shall apply to all motor vehicles, and their motor vehicle manuals, placed on the market after 18 November 2016

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121918282#Comment_121918282

It's spin. I'll try one more time - if someone is paying for fuel whether it be petrol, diesel or electric, OTHER PEOPLE'S usage or CSO stats are of no relevance to them and how much it will cost them. Provide them with the simplest, clearest, most objective information possible without hiding anything. Then allow them to make up their own minds.

Indicative costs based on other people's behaviour in a consumer context are nonsense. It is the sort of rubbish that would encourage a vulnerable, uninformed or financially illiterate person into making a poor decision. State sanctioned manipulation and borderline abuse. Maybe EV zealots support this, shur think of the planet, the end justifies the means, eh?

A naive person who sees that poster is likely to take from it that it "will" cost them 10 euros in petrol or 3 euros with electric to drive 100 km. They don't read the small print or if they do, they don't fully understand it or the weightings. Will they even research the public charging rates that make up the 10%. Unlikely. What is likely to happen is that those posters will push some people (who may end up doing a considerable amount of public charging) to trade in a perfectly serviceable car to save 7 quid on a 100 km journey. We know that there are people out there who do things like this and buy new cars for chape tax. This sort of consumerism should be discouraged, not encouraged, do people want to protect the environment or not.

And that's all I have to say on the matter as it is pointless for me to continue this in a EV forum where most posters, by definition, will want to validate their decision to buy an EV. If there is a consumer forum on board there would likely be a very different reaction.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121918476#Comment_121918476

So what you're saying is that the general public (or a subset thereof) don't know that you can charge an EV at home?

In my experience that's pretty much the only thing everyone I've spoken to about EVs does know. It's the public charging infrastructure that they don't know about. So I'm with @liamog in saying that this information should be available on the posters too.

Edit: Actually if they just added the price per kw for each of the blend components, that's the job done imo. So 90% (.15c/kw) : 10% (.65c/kw) would do it.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121918476#Comment_121918476

It's spin. I'll try one more time - if someone is paying for fuel whether it be petrol, diesel or electric, OTHER PEOPLE'S usage or CSO stats are of no relevance to them and how much it will cost them. Provide them with the simplest, clearest, most objective information possible without hiding anything. Then allow them to make up their own minds.

Falsely showing the costs of relying entirely on public charging is not presenting clear objective information.

People who have not experienced regularly driving of EVs do not have a point of reference for the typical mixes of public vs private charging. Presenting just two numbers (private /public) without a typical mix is much more misleading to an average driver.

We have similar regulations for estimated annual bills for domestic energy comparison, the CRU estimates annual consumption and gives a model that can be applied by energy companies based on urban vs rural, 24hr vs day/night. For the day night mix they provide an estimate of 62%/38% mix. Would you also be of the opinion that energy companies should not need to share this information with consumers.

Perhaps you think giving consumers generalised information is too much, and that consumers can make better choices by having information hidden from them. They should instead use a calculator on their own to figure out how much they might pay.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121918086#Comment_121918086

Yes Day/Night rates are popular with EV owners but ICE drivers, the main target for these adverts, are more likely to be on 24hr rates

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121921199#Comment_121921199

They're being informed of the comparative costs of changing, I'd be surprised if somebody was willing to change how they power their car but find that changing their electricity plan is a step too far.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121921210#Comment_121921210

Some people might have very high energy usage during the day, say for example if the whole family work from home. Switching to a night rate would give them cheaper car charging but might cost them more overall. Also fairly sure that for renters a change of meter to day/night requires the landlords consent?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121922433#Comment_121922433

Some people might have very high energy usage during the day, say for example if the whole family work from home. Switching to a night rate would give them cheaper car charging but might cost them more overall.

The methodology is based on averages. Even the car they've chosen is an average size. Why are you choosing to look at some outliers?

Also fairly sure that for renters a change of meter to day/night requires the landlords consent?

...and what?

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121922631#Comment_121922631

They are outliers now, where EV motoring is all early adopters who are more likely to have access to home charging than the rest of the public.

If mass market EV adoption were to occur, the average mix of home:public charging will change drastically, 90:10 will not be reflective of it at all then.

Seeing as this campaign is targeted at non-EV drivers and the mass market, it should provide information about the cost of charging that will pertain to them, rather than pertaining to those already owning EVs.

crl84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121922741#Comment_121922741

The overwhelming majority of ICE car owners in Ireland have access to home chargers.

When there is significant takeup of EVs among those with home charging abilities, then your point might be relevant.

prawnsambo

This is not a bad time to start people thinking about BEVs. Many people (me included) would have been waiting to see ranges routinely hit the 400+ km mark and we're there now with lots of choice in the market. I think one of the problems with public charging is that the market isn't big enough yet for prices to drop enough that the cost of the infrastructure is spread over more consumers. Bit of a chicken and egg situation, but the availability of home charging makes this a moot point for the moment.

Interestingly, two thirds as many new BEVs were registered in 2023 (22.5k) as were on the road in January 2023 (34k). 19% of total car sales. This year to the end of Feb, new BEVs were slightly up on last year (1.4%). We're still a long way from the government's target of 175k on the road by 2025.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121922741#Comment_121922741

Sigh. Ok you should contact the EU and tell them that this campaign won't work or is unfair or whatever is going through your mind because it is clear that some people just won't take off the blinkers and see this as a simple indicative cost per 100km comparison. I'm not even sure why I'm bothering at this point because surely a lot of the criticism on here is simply designed to waste posters time given how petty the points being made are?

MojoMaker

Looks that way alright Seth.

Lot of new contributors in the form courtesy of this thread and most just wringing their hands and very few actually asking to be informed better about EVs.

We are way past the early adopter phase for electric vehicles in Ireland. Would have been nice to have been a part of it as I gather it was virtually at no cost.

shimadzu

No issue with them requiring the garages to display the average cost per 100Km for the various fuel sources, it well known that EVs cost less to fuel than their ICE counter parts but they really should be displaying the prices ex-vat/duties/levies so the public are aware of the real cost difference and not a cost difference artificially inflated by government interference.

In order to drive further EV sales they really need to address concerns around battery degradation and depreciation of EVs two of the main issues that will prevent a frugal person owning an EV in the near future.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121925291#Comment_121925291

As a consumer education piece that would be a bit silly, a person needs to compare costs they'll experience without having to go look up the latest excise duties and tax rates then break out a calculator to figure it out.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121925291#Comment_121925291

That’d be just stupid. You the regulator telling airlines that they must display the total final price and you want to display a totally unattainable price.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121925291#Comment_121925291

In order to drive further EV sales they really need to address concerns around battery degradation and depreciation of EVs two of the main issues that will prevent a frugal person owning an EV in the near future.

Battery degradation has been proven to be an non-issue. The last diesel car I owned was sold for 1,000, the one before that for 1200. The wife's last one went for €300 and her petrol before that went for €100 so depreciation is a problem in more than just EVs

cannco253

Has anyone seen one of these in the wild yet? Will be interesting to see how many "prompts" the SEAI will receive from the public for non compliance.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121931411#Comment_121931411

Four cars for €2.5 K.

I'm sure they didn't owe you much anyway but it's hard to know the depreciation from just the amount they sold for.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121934334#Comment_121934334

I think the youngest at time of disposal was 12 years old with about 300,000km on the clock... What would a 12 year old high mileage Model 3 go for by comparison? I like to think more than the €300 at least...

Red Silurian

Thinking about it now, there's so much inaccurate information out there painting EVs in a bad light it will be nice to finally have some painting of ICEs in a bad light. Even if the accuracy is debatable

CivilEx

Adrian Weckler and @derekreilly had a chat about the new posters coming to a forecourt near you soon in the latest podcast.

It was good to hear a good robust debate, but one of the takeaways I had was that the SEAI fuel cost comparison posters will really bring ICE running costs into sharp focus in the coming months as:

1) fuel prices go up and €2 per litre will become the norm

2) the price of public EV recharging comes down as falling wholesale electricity prices eventually feed through

https://www.independent.ie/podcasts/the-big-tech-show/the-big-tech-show-ev-sales-drop-for-the-first-time-in-ireland-is-this-the-best-time-to-buy-electric/a1270287380.html

kirving

If they put this up on advertising hoardings, TV ads, radio, etc. it would be absolutely fine and I'd support it.

But to actually place this poster at the location where electricity costs more than Petrol/Diesel for a 100km journey is totally misleading to current and future EV buyers.

It's akin to forcing restaurants to advertise that Fanta is €2, and Water is €1*, but they only sell Evian which cost €3. Utter nonsense tbh.

*If 90% of the water you drink is from home.

Further, it give no incentive for fast charger providers to reduce their rates - which is a vital part of reducing battery sizes in general.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121956780#Comment_121956780

You're still going on about this?

You really need to move on with your life rather than focusing on what really is a non-issue!

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121956828#Comment_121956828

It's easy enough to move on and still see this for what it is.

The SEAI making businesses use space on their premises to advertise the benefits of something they don't sell.

A nonsense issue.

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121956828#Comment_121956828

I'm not actually, that post from today is almost identical to one which I posted on the 19th of March.

The previous post was actually a re-write of what has shown up today. As I pressed send on the original, boards just refreshed, and what I had written disappeared, but it looks to have been lost in the ether since then and just shown up now.

Rest assured I'm not THAT upset about it!

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941565#Comment_121941565

If the price of oil goes up doesn't the price of electricity go up also? The 2 commodities are price linked are they not?