Increase in road deaths - questions need to be asked

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894486#Comment_121894486

Seems shocking, when taken in isolation and not considering the broader statistical context, such as how the baseline figure for 2019 was a near record low for Ireland (second lowest number of fatalities ever recorded in a year on Irish roads).

And yet, from the same set of figures published by the European Commission last week:

i.e. the finding here is that even in spite of the percentage increase from 2019, Ireland is still one of the safest in terms of fatalities per population, with only five of the EU27 having a lower death rate and only three being significantly lower.

Charles Babbage

It is fine that Ireland is still one of the safest countries in the world, but there is no reason to be complacent about an increase. There is no reason for us to be higher than in 2017-2018. It is a bit like the economy, we grew very quickly for many years, but now we have caught up on the prosperous countries and we are going to grow more slowly from now on, but we should not be complacent if the economy started to decline,

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121895349#Comment_121895349

I agree. I was just illustrating again how just highlighting one statistic or one infographic, without considering the broader context, is often misleading. It's not intended as a pop at you personally, as it's something that's regularly done by lobby groups, NGOs, public bodies, etc., as well as by posters on Boards.

The one you put up disguises the fact that Ireland was still one of the safest last year in terms of deaths per head of population. The one I put up disguises the fact that despite this, there's been a significant increase in the number of deaths in recent years.

magicbastarder

i'd agree wholeheartedly that one particular data point does not paint a broad picture. for example, if you were to take the above data, the logical conclusion is that ireland and NL are equally safe; but the road usage and road safety situation is very different between the two. as i often ask, if irish people were to take up cycling at the rate the dutch do it, would the fatality figures remain equal? if not, it's not sensible to say that the roads are equally safe.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121895846#Comment_121895846

Ireland and NL have different geographies, with Ireland with the less favourable. As others have noted we have been doing pretty well given that, but the increase is concerning.

magicbastarder

i think it's fairly trivial to say that it's not just geography which separates ireland and NL in terms of road usage!

crusd

Ireland is one of the safest countries in world to drive in. It doesn't fit in with the Ireland is the worst at everything narrative that people enjoy though

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121895846#Comment_121895846

Speculation. When it becomes reality we will be able to test you hypothesis

Suvarnabhumi

Not sure if it's been mentioned, as I haven't read through the whole thread, but I think the reasons for these crashes needs to be made public, either on the news or on TV ads.

We see the reports about the young people getiing killed on the news, we see the vigils and we see the funerals. Everyone says it's terrible, but we're never told what happened, or if it is made public, it doesn't get reported.

We need a TV add showing the reason that "3 young girls died in Leitrim". The driver was going too fast, the driver was drunk, or on a phone, or maybe it was a mechanical reason.

If we're told, maybe people might change their habits.

Uncle Pierre

Just with mention of The Netherlands, another example of how just one data point can be misleading. Relates to 2022:

• The Netherlands - 291 cyclist fatalities from a population of 17.6 million = 16.5 deaths per million
• Ireland - 7 cyclist fatalities from a population of 5 million = 1.4 deaths per million

Taken in isolation, one could conclude that The Netherlands - despite its exemplary cycling infrastructure - is 12 times more dangerous to cycle in than Ireland is. However, I don't think many would agree with that conclusion.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121896183#Comment_121896183

well, yes? the fact that i obviously can't prove it right now does not mean it's not a valid point.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121896282#Comment_121896282

indeed - we'd need valid stats on km cycled per capita, plus an age profile of those cycling - for example, NL saw an upswing with cyclist deaths after electric bikes took off; and a very large proportion of them were elderly people who were getting back on bikes as a result. less able to survive a collision.

Furze99

RSA and Gardaí the other day, identifying patterns in last years road accidents: a high proportion of young drivers and drink but also drugs increasingly evident.

Now if you really wanted to tackle the statistics, what would you do in light of above??

Let's see, have far more check points with testing for drink & drugs. Checking for unlicenced, uninsured and drivers on provisionals unaccompanied. A campaign aimed at younger drivers, those learning and newly qualified.

Wouldn't that make sense???

What do RSA propose to do - simply reduce speed limit signs everywhere.

At this point, I think they should all resign or be fired from that authority. Have a body with policies that will target the problem areas. Not a scattergun approach just because they can legislate for it, rather than put boots on the ground.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121896556#Comment_121896556

Lots of point can be considered valid when you can't back them up with fact. Could equally say its not sensible to claim that Irish roads would be safe than NL roads if we had less cyclists

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121896613#Comment_121896613

It doesn't need more campaigns, it needs more enforcement. Randomly lockdown towns and villages with checkpoints for drink and drug driving. A massive increase in speed cameras and anpr camera's - the tech is there, but this State is decades behind in implementation.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121897019#Comment_121897019

Speed cameras are fine but unless random only a partial solution.

But randomly lockdown towns and villages with checkpoints for drink and drug driving as you say would have a big effect, I haven't been stopped by a Garda check in a long time now.

Whocare

Very easy to reduce bad driving if people could Submit dash cam footage to garda Easily . People be lot more Cautious on roads

kirving

Dashcam is long overdue, but at a means to improve compliance overall, and punishment of course. Is there any data to suggest that dashcam portals cut road deaths though?

What percentage of drivers who cause fatal collision have ANY points, and if so, how many?

The link between perceived dangerous driving (what people are scared by, and want enforced), and actual behaviors which cause deaths need to be analysed. There are high profile cases of course where blatant disregard for the law has caused deaths, no doubt, but I think the vast majority of deaths are from people who just hadn't a clue how to drive and probably never came to the attention of Gardai before.

PeaSea

Its not just the South and the Gardai, it's just as bad here in the North too.

We live in suburbia just off a 30mph road, cars regularly go down the road at 40-50mph, in fact I would say it's the majority (I regularly walk down the same road). The stats are "If you hit a pedestrian: at 40 mph there is a 90 percent chance they will be killed. at 35 mph there is a 50 percent chance they will be killed. at 30 mph there is a 20 percent chance they will be killed.". When I retire (as long as I get there safely) I think I'm going to stand out beside the road with a huge sign saying "Its 30 numb nuts" on it. There are pedestrian lights that I use most working days, and over the last month on three occasions vehicles have gone through the lights when they're red as I was waiting to cross, including one yahoo on a tractor with wheels bigger than me, you'd have been peeling me off the road if that thing had hit me. At the end of the road is a roundabout, all entries and exits from the roundabout are single lane in each direction, however there is a mass decision from the driving public to turn these into two lanes at the roundabout, so instead of a max of 4 cars entering the roundabout at the same time there could now be 8; plus those turning right block the view of those going left. Accidents on the M1 and M2 into Belfast are now a daily occurrence, they weren't that common 10 years ago. These are all relatively new phenomenon.

The reasons ? Probably lots, but lets start with a deterioration of any sense of community, being replaced by complete self-absorption. Personally I don't think in-car screens are helping at all. More cars on the road will mathematically lead to more accidents and more deaths (and higher insurance) - 30 or 40 years ago a 2 car family in this country was a sign of wealth, around here now families have so many cars and trucks they can't physically fit them all on their driveways. And the increase in size and weight of car must be a factor too, also those trucks with the huge bumpers that couldn't be more designed to kill if they'd tried.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121897216#Comment_121897216

Submitting dashcam footage is just the tip of the iceberg. It's what Gardai do when it is submitted is the real issue.

They've said that the plan is to continue with current legislation, which requires the submitter to attend to the garda station to make a statement, which will be handwritten by the Garda, and then submitted on a file to the Inspector (who is not a roads policing specialist) for a decision.

A portal for submitting footage will be useless unless they change the current process, and change their generally petrolhead attitudes too.

NIMAN

There is just a general lack of respect for the rules of the road these days.

And due to this, mistakes are made and accidents happen.

On a daily basis I witness people driving through red lights, breaking solid white lines, sitting in yellow boxes, parked on double yellow lines, speeding excessively, overtaking dangerously. Its endless.

NIMAN

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121897729#Comment_121897729

Heard an interesting discussion about illegal parking on the radio the other day, and there was a thing on it which would make a big difference but which will never happen here.

Apparently in London and Paris, if a member of the public submits a photo of a car parked illegally, then the registered owner of that vehicle is fined. No debate, fine issued in post.

Now, that could be done here, and would be easily managed. Each photo is proof. Doesn't matter if you were only parked for a minute to use the atm, or whatever. You're fined.

But of course that would be too sensible, so won't happen here.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121903369#Comment_121903369

However a modest amount of enforcement will dissuade many of these people and reduce the effect where people see others doing it.

JohnC.

The problem is that you often see those tasked to enforce it turning a blind eye to things happening in front of them, or even doing it themselves.

thomas 123

jeep with horse box, car, myself another car - crest of a hill on a 100kmph stretch of main road - 4x overtake - that was a first for me. jeep was breaking the 80kmph limit for him with the trailer going ~90.

Patience has to be a contributing factor in loads of these deaths - if not the impatient moron the people they are coming against when their idiocy results In accidents. It’s not boy racers from what I see also.

During last week I’ve observed cars going through established red lights. In Nutgrove where Homebase is, half of the drivers do not observe a yield applying to cars to allow those coming up from underground car park to join the exit queue. I observed a woman approaching, knew she had not intention yielding, eyes glued to her phone in a busy car park.

McCrack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121903387#Comment_121903387

What happens if the registered owner doesn't pay the fine?

Will it go to summons? And if goes to summons in court and the registered owner denies the accusation who is going to prove the photograph into evidence because the only person who can do that is the person who took it.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058337314/increase-in-road-deaths-questions-need-to-be-asked

It is mostly young drivers that cause the road deaths and mostly male drivers within that subset that is fact of life. The most aggressive driver culture also seems to be towards the Northern Part of the country for some reason.

It is just a fact that there are many young male drivers are more reckless, they can have all the tests passed then slip into "show off" "invincible" mode. There is a reason insurance for young male drivers is so high.

Personally I think there should be a speed limiter on all cars by law for all drivers until they hit 30 with NO OVERRIDE on it. Anyone who breeches it should be given severe penalty points etc

This could be checked by Gardai at checkpoints along with drink/drug driving.

It would be no harm at all to make drivers from 18-30 slow down. A speed limit is not a target it is the maximum speed allowed on any given road.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121905133#Comment_121905133

A subset of drivers cause most problems. A more reasonable plan would be a box in the car for N drivers and any person with significant points which would record their driving and breathalysers for anyone ever convicted of drink driving.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121903387#Comment_121903387

I think this one must have been either misrepresented on the radio or else you picked it up wrongly, in relation to London anyway.

From the London Cycling Campaign website, at https://lcc.org.uk/advice/how-to-report-a-vehicle-blocking-a-cycle-lane/: