Increase in road deaths - questions need to be asked

magicbastarder

5km/h over the limit - that's a good wrong; 20km/h over the limit, that's a bad wrong.

Why is the definition of 'limit' so difficult?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121821946#Comment_121821946

They don't want to slow down.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121802262#Comment_121802262

Motorways.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121821922#Comment_121821922

Well, here's the thing....

Suppose the RSA conduct two speed surveys.

The first is on a straight stretch of 50 km/h road, in bright sunny daytime weather, at a time of low traffic and with few or no pedestrians or cyclists around. A car passes by on average every 30 seconds over the course of an hour (i.e. 120 cars). Thirty of those cars are being driven at less than 50 km/h. The other 90 are travelling at speeds between 51 and 55 km/h.

The RSA finding will be "75% of drivers exceeding the speed limit on 50 km/h roads". On the face of it, that sounds like a major problem, even though there's no immediate or excessive danger to driving at 55 km/h on a straight road in good weather conditions when there's nobody else around. To use your own word, it would be "graaaaand".

The second survey is on an 80 km/h road, with a number of bad bends and other hazards, at night and in heavy fog. Again, 120 cars pass by in an hour. All of them are doing 79 km/h.

The RSA finding will be "0% of drivers exceeding the speed limit on the 80 km/h road surveyed". So, on the face of it, no problem there at all - despite the fact that every single one of them was driving too fast for the conditions. This certainly would not be "graaaaaand".

Granted, these are extreme examples, but they illustrate why a bullet point in an RSA Powerpoint presentation shouldn't be taken as Gospel.

Flinty997

There is an irony in people complaining about the RSA use of inappropriate speed. Then when they reference the speed limit people complain that it's not appropriate speed. Can't win.

The idea is to change people's habits. If their habit to speed they'll most likely do it in all conditions. As it's habit.

https://www.donegaldaily.com/2022/02/14/drivers-caught-speeding-in-dangerous-weather-conditions/

Enforcement catchs bad habits, and reduces it. Which has an impact on accidents.

zell12

Two men and a woman were taken to hospital following a head on collision in north Wexford, accident happened after 7pm between two cars

How does that even happen, and is still "accident"

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121823117#Comment_121823117

If you actually read RSA reports & studies, you'll notice they don't tend the use terms "appropriate speed" and "inappropriate speed" at all. Theirs is a black and white world where either somebody exceeds the speed limit, or they don't.

But going back to the examples I gave above - I think most would agree that driving over the speed limit at 51 km/h in the first set of conditions is far less inappropriate than driving under the speed limit at 79 km/h in the second set.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121801164#Comment_121801164

All that's true and I cycle as well. It's astonishing to see some of the things people get up to on the road. But one thing I have definitely noticed is the stink of dope coming from far too many cars and at all times of the day too. Drug driving, I'd wager, has increased dramatically and I wouldn't be at all surprised if that has had a significant impact on road accidents in this country.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121823256#Comment_121823256

That's not far from where I live myself in North County Wexford.

Thing I'd take most from it is how the occupant(s) of the black car didn't suffer life-threatening injuries, despite the state the car was left in. They must have been wearing their seat belt.

Something that jumps out at me from another RSA Powerpoint (see page 20 of this one - https://www.rsa.ie/docs/default-source/road-safety/annual-conference-2022/rrd_res_20221021_vbconferencepresfinal.pdf?sfvrsn=fa7b9352_5) is that in 54% of the 56 driver fatality cases where speed was judged a contributory factor, and where a seat belt was available to the driver, the driver was not wearing a seat belt.

That's 30 people who might also have escaped with non life-threatening injuries (like the driver of the black car did), if only they'd buckled up before driving.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121819411#Comment_121819411

Not difficult at all. Just extremely expensive.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121821946#Comment_121821946

Exactly. The speed limit is the limit, end of the story. It's the limit you're allowed to travel on that particular stretch of road. It's not the speed you have to travel at and it's not a mild suggestion that you can ignore.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121823389#Comment_121823389

I don't really need the RSA to tell me that in a scenario where a single car that's rolled 10 times crossed two fields and ended up 20ft up in a tree. That speed was likely a factor.

I also don't need to know the speed limit to three decimal places.

I also don't care if someone normally does 200 kmph with no problems and it's graaaand.

teediddlyeye

Coming home on the N7 on the motorbike this morning. Passed a serious looking crash just after Naas before the M9.

There was an equally serious looking one in the exact same spot yesterday morning!

Crashing on a perfectly straight road I can only picture it being down to phones. Can see it all the time on the bike.

I'd fully support some sort of signal blocker when the car is in motion.

Fùck the passengers, they can talk to each other.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121823588#Comment_121823588

Exactly it is a legal thing, fundamentally concerned bureaucratic convenience, it has only a loose connection with road safety. The authorities have managed to conflate exceeding the speed limit with speeding, when the two are not the same and you could be speeding one day while below the limit and on anther day not speeding when above it.

screamer

its easy to just say its speeding but i think there are a lot more factors at play. overall there are too many car journeys and more journeys = more potential for accidents. speed limiting is just the easiest way to try and alter drivers behaviour but its not the be all and end all, and more work is needed. still every death and every life changing injury is devastating, but i think in a country where the roads are literally alive with cars, its something we're just going to have to get used to, sadly.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121824808#Comment_121824808

its something we're just going to have to get used to, sadly.

That's the main problem though - there is nothing meaningful out there in the way of enforcement that drivers need to be getting used to. I saw an interview with Drew Harris yesterday where he was talking about a clampdown on speeding, drink and drug driving and non-use of seat belts. I've ~100km driven so far today and not one garda or speed van spotted.

Rubberchikken

Instead of a national go slow.day with supposedly extra gardai out on the roads, maybeore gardai walking and on bikes where they might actually observe and be able to do something about the lack of seat belts. Phone usage and sheer stupidity that a lot of drivers think is acceptable.

On my way across town this evening to work, at least six drivers obviously using or looking at phones coming towardsw or at the lights.

6 $uckers that deserve to be penalised and which might make them cop bloody on.

Oh and btw, I've never an ounce of sympathy for these car crashes. Completely preventable.

Accidents my ar$e.

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121823588#Comment_121823588

When the RSA say that 1/3 fatal collisions are a result of "speeding", do you think that means that the culpable driver was driving over the sped limit?

I'm not suggesting that you need to drive above the limit, but I genuinely believe that taking such a one dimensional view of speed limits is a detriment to road safety. It instills the belief that 99km/h = safe, and 101km/h = unsafe, when the problem is far more complex than that.

Whether or not a given speed is "inappropriate" or not depends on a multitude of factors, and so changes all the time. It may be that 70km/h is perfectly safe on a sunny day, but the only available sign in a 60km/h. On a rainy night with oncoming headlights, 60km/h might be way too fast.

• If you crash on a sunny day at 65km/h, that's considered Speeding (above the limit)
• If you crash at 55km/h on a rainy night, that's considered Speeding (inappropriate speed)

The point being that speed enforcement only considers "above the limit" scenarios, and is a major part of road safety strategy, but zero breakdown is provided between the two situations. My belief is that this is precisely because a significant number of collisions happen in the second scenario, and the RSA have done nothing to address that.

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/wexford/gorey-news/three-people-rushed-to-hospital-with-serious-injuries-after-car-crash-in-co-wexford/a464598316.html

What a bloody mess, at least one driving like a maniac here.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121825069#Comment_121825069

Well, it's definitely possible that one of them was driving at maniacal speed.

But also possible that it was caused by somebody driving at what they considered a "safe" speed of 80 or 90 km/h on a relatively fine stretch of 100 km/h road, with that person taking their eyes off the road to look at a phone or for some other reason, and drifting into the path of the oncoming car.

As with any other crash, the investigation will determine that. Shouldn't jump to conclusions in the meantime.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121825859#Comment_121825859

Agreed, and the damage from that collision isn't that bad or suggestive of maniacal speed. A crash where both vehicles are doing 50-60 km/h in opposite directions would cause that level of damage. Looks worse because the fire services have cut the roof off the black Kia.

When I am driving, I am more concerned about other drivers taking their eyes off the road than other drivers speeding. The level of unpredictability with drivers taking their eyes off the road is scary. You meet someone on a single carriageway road with no hard shoulder, neither of you are speeding or doing anything obviously dangerous and suddenly they veer into your path when you are a couple of metres away from them. Now you're dead.

wexcap

Lads my view on the increasing road deaths is not speed but the condition of the cars are people taking the time to get new tyres or there breaks with the cost of living are they just taking risks

AyeGer

We seem to have left the policing of our roads to speed vans. All they do is catch people speeding in certain well established areas.

They do not cover the reckless driving and aggression on our roads. They don’t cover people distracted using their mobile phone, or staggering out of a pub into their car to drive themselves home through towns, cities or along rural roads.

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121850413#Comment_121850413

That is really my issue - it's not particularly effective as in my experience, the speed vans are places in areas where speeding is often of little consequence. I rarely see them near R roads at night time with low traffic volume but much higher speeds.

In any case, the RSA replied to my Freedom of Information request, and low and behold they have no specific records on whether a driver was actually above the speed limit when they caused a collision. Incredible really.

That of course isn't to say that speeding isn't a factor, but it seriously undermines the choice to place the vast majority of our roads policing effort on speed cameras, without any data to back it up, and in fact contradicts their approach.

26% of all road deaths were due to speeding (above the limit & speeding), but of €2.95M in fines in Galway Division for example, €1.86M, 63% are for Speeding Offences alone.

If we were to strip out non-dangerous offences like tax and Covid 19, and cycling offences, the percentage would be even higher - and yet the RSA don't actually have any data to say how many drivers were actually over the speed limit when they crashed?

That, to me, is not data-driven problem solving.

We need to address the other 74% of deaths with much more force, and also the unknown percentage of drivers who were below the limit, but were driving at an unsafe speed and still caused a fatality.

notfragile

A lots of road death anywhere. Please be careful everyone!

Purple Mountain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121851509#Comment_121851509

I've actually become nervous driving lately because of this. I would class myself as a safe and competent driver but getting into my car lately I pause for a few seconds thinking about the potential idiot drivers I could meet.

fullstop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121800486#Comment_121800486

A car drove through a red light in front of me today (pulled out from side road), drove through a pedestrian green as a woman crossed with 2 kids. There was a Garda car sitting at the opposite side of the lights and he just continued on his merry way, nothing done. There’s absolutely no enforcement, no consequence and people generally do whatever the **** they want. The amount of people driving along watching videos up on the dash is actually astonishing and the need to change the laws around ‘mobile phone usage’ ASAP, as it seems it’s only illegal to hold the phone and not have it stuck to the windscreen while you FaceTime or text your friends.

magicbastarder

this 'the roads are getting safer because there are fewer deaths' reminds me of an episode of a malcolm gladwell podcast i listened to a few months back. the gist of which was 'deaths from gun violence are dropping. great news! wait, it's because we've become much better at saving lives of people who've been shot'

Charles Babbage

Ireland in a familiar position at the top of the growth table.