Increase in road deaths - questions need to be asked

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949582#Comment_121949582

That's true - but I think an easier problem to solve in Dublin than Donegal, as most of the Dublin test centre's are on the outskirts of the city, so finding an 80km/h zone shouldn't take too long.

The point on Gorey test centre is fair, as that road is fairly narrow. It's similar in Tuam for example, but really all you do it get up the gears for a minute before it's over. It doesn't actually prepare anyone to drive on road where balance of the car into a corner actually matters, or where you need to anticipate a cyclist around a blind bend.

I'm sure there are further good and bad examples, but my general point is that the test doesn't appear to target the areas where fatalities actually occur, and we get childish stats from the RSA like "46% of fatalities occur between Friday-Sunday". But Fri-Sun is 42% of the days in a week, so it means almost nothing.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949532#Comment_121949532

The RSA frequently place the onus for safety firmly on the vulnerable person

Their campaign launched yesterday included a tweet which showed that they don't understand why people cycle (bunching everyone's reasons in as a pastime) but which also made the message about cyclist deaths become one where cyclists should ensure their bikes are roadworthy. No mention of drivers making sure their cars are roadworthy, etc. - the message which started off as a be aware of vulnerable road users suddenly segued to one where cyclists should fix their bikes...

They've since deleted that tweet once it gathered the response it deserved.

Unfortunately, this wasn't a one-off error - it is absolutely normal behaviour from the RSA who encourage schoolkids to dress in builders vests so that they aren't knocked down when walking to school. Frequently, they will tell people walking or cycling on how to behave. You will rarely see them use the same language towards people driving where it is usually "asking drivers" or "urging drivers". A good example where they are asking people to obey the law and not telling them...

https://twitter.com/RSAIreland/status/1770899955818942920

Honestly, it's no wonder people generally don't give a bo11ocks about the rules when even the RSA (and AGS!) have a softly softly approach to them. I include AGS because of crap like this...

https://twitter.com/GardaTraffic/status/1773342097690505297

https://twitter.com/GardaTraffic/status/1773342101918355792

To me, it reads like they let him go while he was still pissed and watched him walk straight over to his car.

Red Silurian

There have been some major road safety campaigns and laws passed in recent years. The changing of the licencing system, the "Ciaran Tracey law," the average speed cameras rollout and many national roads were reduced from 100km/h to 80km/h - the N24 being a case in point

I can't help but think that these changes aren't actually helping

Patrick2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949756#Comment_121949756

In American youtube videos the cops detain drunk drivers until they sober up

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949756#Comment_121949756

Thanks for that, I was wondering where the 2/2 was and couldn't see it. Not sure I agree that it's telling all the cyclists to be good little boys and girls, though, as was originally suggested. Especially when combined with the last line in the 1/2 tweet.

The 'pastime' nonsense is exactly that, though, absolute nonsense. It's indicative of the attitude towards cyclists that is pervasive with people of a certain age/demographic. I could almost guess the age of the person writing that tweet based on the word usage. Some people see riding a bike as something that kids do.......when you grow up you get yourself a car, naturally, and leave all the toys behind. Or see it as a form of entertainment, instead of a cheaper, quicker, healthier, more sustainable, more eco-friendly, more pleasant, more mindful mode of transport that it is.

I was in Centerparcs recently and the amount of conversations I overheard from people who obviously haven't been in a saddle since their teens. They genuinely were all super positive at how pleasant and quick it was, with even a few out and about with the kids in the lashings of rain just for the fun of it.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949865#Comment_121949865

Laws aren't worth the paper they're written on if they're not enforced though.

Spook_ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949254#Comment_121949254

But do you not think that the wording of "Dangerous Junction" should make road users more aware of the fact they need to take extra care because the junction is dangerous?

Or is it just another case of people's PC thinking of "well the junction isn't dangerous the people using it are"

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949756#Comment_121949756

I genuinely don't understand such antipathy towards the RSA's advice for cyclists and pedestrians.

I don't see how it can be bad advice to advise cyclists to make sure their brakes, tyres, lights, etc., are in good working order.

I don't see how it's bad advice to advise pedestrians to wear high-vis/reflective clothing and ideally carry a torch if walking in the dark on country roads.

I don't believe that they mean that every pedestrian should do this all the time, e.g. if walking on a footpath in a lit-up area, and maybe that's something that's missing from their messaging.

I do understand some may be frustrated at the RSA's messaging to motorists, but that doesn't mean it's incorrect for them to give cyclists and pedestrians what's eminently good advice in itself.

Would you go out on your bike without knowing the brakes were working properly? Would you walk an unlit country road at night, wearing only dark clothing and not carrying a light? I know I wouldn't.

Spook_ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949475#Comment_121949475

Roads are constantly being realligned, having speed reducing ramps etc installed, footpaths being installed where there previously wasn't any. All of it takes money and time but it would seem you think the councils etc. can just wave a magic wand and do it (as Tommy Cooper used to say ) Just like That!

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950115#Comment_121950115

Not expecting any magic but a prioritised list which identifies the nature of the hazard and potential remediation which can be addressed as funds are available and/or used in applying for funding would be a good start. Not just an accident black spot sign, some of which seem to be around as long as I have been driving.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950056#Comment_121950056

"I do understand some may be frustrated at the RSA's messaging to motorists, but that doesn't mean it's incorrect for them to give cyclists and pedestrians what's eminently good advice in itself. "

but that's precisely what people are complaining about, the imbalance? i don't think anyone here is suggesting 'check your brakes' is bad advice.

though checking your chain? as above, that's like saying to a motorist 'make sure your gearbox works before driving your car'.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949532#Comment_121949532

Looks like they deleted the second part of their tweet. You can see the one I linked to is marked as 1/2, but the 2/2 which was solely targeted at cyclists seems to have been removed.

Spook_ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950147#Comment_121950147

Probably because they are further down the prioritised list than you think they deserve to be and councils and RSA change their prioritised list because of campaigners etc.

For example, I've seen mentioned (maybe even in this thread ) about a bad bend in Donabate. It used to not have any warning except for Chevrons, then they put in a flashing illuminated "Bad Bend" sign activated by when traffic approached, now they've removed the "Bad Bend" sign and replaced it with a 1.5 meter Bike Space Illuminated sign. Priorities change the bend is still just as bad.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950056#Comment_121950056

How come they never tell drivers of black and navy cars, which are more dangerous than bright colour cars, to put hiviz on their cars? Why is it only cyclists and pedestrians that get told what to wear?

magicbastarder

is that on hearse road? an unpleasant road to cycle in broad daylight at the best of times. donabate is a bit of a cycling island; not somewhere it's easy to get to unless you're well used to a bike, the only approaches are hearse road and turvey avenue and even getting to the western end of either is not a pleasant cycle.

Spook_ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950149#Comment_121950149

However, there is ( no matter how inefficent the booking/testing system is ) a testing regime for automobiles called the NCT maybe all these people who think that messages to cyclists to be aware of things like brakes, chains etc. are a waste would prefer to see mandatory testing of bicycles ala motoring check points where if the bicycle fails a basic test it's taken off the cyclist for their own safety.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950192#Comment_121950192

Maybe because the pedestrians and cyclists are more vulnerable. Listen no one is forcing you to wear one. Being a black ninja is cool

magicbastarder

saying the RSA's messaging should be focused on the more vulnerable you are to danger, rather than on how much danger you create, is a, shall we say, interesting argument.

magicbastarder

to be fair, even though i think a lot of the messaging from the RSA is inept, there's not much they can do when road laws are so brazenly flouted with essentially zero fear of punishment. they can't push a 'behave on the roads or else…' message, because there is no 'or else'.

instead they have to plead with people to be sensible, and that's going to be preaching to the choir where it does land.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950056#Comment_121950056

The core problem is that the message that comes from the RSA is from a windscreen view of the world. They wouldn't describe me in my car as doing it as a pastime - there is an ongoing approach used by the RSA that broadcasts messages towards drivers with a very different angle than with other road users. As someone who cycles (as well as driving and walking), I see messages from the RSA that I know they would not post towards people driving.

In terms of the hi-viz, you say that they are missing something from their messaging - I would say they're missing a shedload of tact to be honest! The RSA spent tons of money on hi-viz with no data to show the benefits of such a spend. Does the hi-viz help the two walking in the tweet below (during the day time)?

https://twitter.com/RSAIreland/status/884435391197184001

There is an onus on people walking, cycling or whatever along the roads, day and night. However, what is rarely said is that there is a greater onus on those who are in supposedly in control of the big metal vehicle also travelling along those roads.

Where is the discussion on the colour of cars and the removal of "unsafe" colours from the roads? Where is the discussion on driving within the view that you can safely see within? Where is the discussion on helmet usage? Nah, feck it, let's just choose the easy way out (which won't fix anything).

As far as I'm concerned, the RSA aren't fit for purpose. There is a massive bias in their campaigns. Much of the crap they spout towards vulnerable road users reinforces people's views that the person in the car has priority over the vulnerable person. Even the basics such as this tweet that they released last night referred to yet another driverless vehicle…

https://twitter.com/RSAIreland/status/1773062542698410027

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949475#Comment_121949475

Well alot of bends/narrow roads are on the edge of farmland.

Not too sure how happy any of us would be faced with a compulsory order to sell the our land* to straighten a road.

*I'm a city gal with no ties to a farm that doesn't mean I don't have sympathy for people faced with a compulsory order even if it is for the greater good.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950257#Comment_121950257

You're putting a lot of focus on the misjudged use of the word "pastime".

If the tweet had instead said "Cycling should be a fun and safe activity", would you still be as annoyed that they also gave advice for cyclists to make sure their brakes, lights, etc., are in good order?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950406#Comment_121950406

I looked at the word pastime simply because it was in yesterday's tweet. This isn't something new from the RSA - it's always like this.

Also telling cyclists to make sure that their lights, etc are working isn't really the best thing to include in a message when asking people to drive safely around them

machiavellianme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949474#Comment_121949474

Either that or a county councillor lives along the stretch!

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950415#Comment_121950415

People have a real way of not answering a short and simple question here 🙄

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950192#Comment_121950192

Cars are required to have lights, pedestrians are not. Cyclists are required to have lights, but as usual many of them do what they like, without penalty or any attempt at enforcement.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950661#Comment_121950661

I've often seen people driving without lights. Three times in the past year, I have stopped AGS vehicles which have been driven in the dark because the garda behind the wheel either didn't know they hadn't their lights on or were unaware that they were using DRLs.

As for "but as usual many of them do what they like, without penalty or any attempt at enforcement" - this applies to every type of road user so stop with the attempt to portray people on bikes as being the only ones who break the road traffic laws.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950406#Comment_121950406

there's a bit of a 'no real scotsman' vibe to your defence of the RSA; there's nothing wrong with their messages to cyclists, but you understand the frustration about the messages to motorists. putting a lot of focus on cycling being called 'a pastime' - can you imagine they called driving a pastime?

they've shown themselves to be consistently shoddy in their messaging. maybe they need to hire someone as a communications specialist?

(they have a 'head of communications' and a 'social media manager' in the organisation)

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950661#Comment_121950661

Maybe you could tell the Citroën driver that I spoke to this evening that he needs to have more than one working brake light. I see a few such drivers every week. On dark, winter commutes, I see at least one driver each day with no back lights because the idiot behind the wheel doesn't know how their DRLs work. But as usual many of them do what they like, without penalty or any attempt at enforcement.

RSA have zero evidence to support their fetish to wrap every man, woman and child in the country in hiviz, while they quietly ignore drivers of black and navy cars, and manufacturers going for broke to make their cars harder to see.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a28845406/bmw-x6-vantablack/

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950406#Comment_121950406

Let's say I waved my magic wand, and got every cyclist in the country to comply with ALL the RSA guidance overnight. What impact would this have on our death and injury statistics?