Boeing 737 Max

Tenzor07

Sprit aerosystems are now going to ramp up the move to automation and include more robotics in manufacturing thus eliminating human error..

Padraig Mor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121724391#Comment_121724391

Is this a separate issue to the problems already know about with misdrilled holes in the rear pressure bulkhead? Or the same issue? If it's another problem - oh dear....

Turbulent Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121733145#Comment_121733145

It's a classic "treat the symptom, not the cause" if they go ahead with this. In a regulated industry, it's extremely difficult for a few bad operators to subvert a functioning quality system - the checks and balances are specifically put in place to capture these.

My guess is that they just have a poor quality culture, and that's harder to fix then just adding a few robots.

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121737277#Comment_121737277

Having Robotic production lines is extremely common in all Auto makers, so more automated production lines in aircraft manufacturing will eliminate errors as robots don't make mistakes and any errors can be downloaded and analysed...

john boye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738377#Comment_121738377

But again, that won't fix the culture.

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738912#Comment_121738912

Robotic assembly lines don't have a culture, they're programmed to perform precision tasks.... A human can forget to add a bolt or can drill a hole in the wrong location, of course that shouldn't happen at all if the proper safety systems are in place, but with robotics in operation then human error is removed..

Tenger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121733145#Comment_121733145

A positive step...BUT a bit like horse and barn door.

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121741157#Comment_121741157

Too big to fail! So these issues have to be resolved, automation is a big step towards that...

john boye

But the culture clearly has to change with it. Mere Automation isn't much use if the same attitudes towards safety and quality control continue. Simply assuming that having machines do the work instead of humans will fix everything is the same kind of attitude that's got Boeing into this mess.

Tenzor07

Isn't the fact that production lines will be more automated with machines that don't make errors proof that the culture is changing?

LiamaDelta

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743661#Comment_121743661

It depends on how you view 'culture'. If it's a case of saying, we don't have competency and machines are cheaper than all of these mistakes are now costing us well then the culture probably hasn't changed. Also, one thing (such as increasing automation is unlikely to change a culture, it will be many many things).

Tenzor07

Boeing/Sprit are addressing the human factors involved in manufacturing, like I've said already machines don't make errors meaning safety is improved.

john boye

You really don't seem to see what appears to be the overall problem in this, you don't work for Boeing by any chance, do you?

Tenger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743661#Comment_121743661

It's not just the production process that is at fault here.

Over the last 20 years Boeing have ignored internal memo's from engineers regarding design decisions and sales promises. (MAX engine issues, B787 dodgy prototype)

Automation doesn't help if the design has been rushed to the market or if the tweaks to the design are a rushjob.

The human error (at face value) appears to stem from the corporate decision to move manufacturing from unionised Seattle to non-unionised Carolina.

Automation may alleviate that issue but the QC will see have the same higher level of oversight.

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744358#Comment_121744358

Well, this is just corporate America and not exclusive to Boeing, moving jobs and manufacturing overseas to save costs has been going on for decades, and now Boeing have union workers seeking a pay rise: https://www.businesspost.ie/news/boeings-next-crisis-aerospace-workers-demanding-40-pay-raise/

So will be interesting to see how they handle this..

Same with Airbus, cutting expensive labour costs in Europe: https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/indias-dynamatic-tech-inks-deal-with-airbus-make-all-a220-door-variants-2024-02-08/

andy1249

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738951#Comment_121738951

A Fallacy , Robots have to be maintained by people , taught positions by people , programmed by people , installed by people , they have moving parts that wear down , they do " exactly " what they are told to do by people.

Robots can and do make mistakes , they are not intelligent , they are not autonomous , they must be maintained , installed , and told what to do by people and people make mistakes.

Worked in semiconductors for years , and no one ever touches a semiconductor wafer , all handling is done by robots , but many many many semiconductor wafers have been destroyed by faulty or badly taught robots.

Boeing have a bad culture.

They have been allowed to self certify for years by the FAA , and self certification is essentially no certification.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/how-the-faa-allows-jetmakers-to-self-certify-that-planes-meet-us-safety-requirements/2019/03/15/96d24d4a-46e6-11e9-90f0-0ccfeec87a61_story.html

The 737 max is not a new aircraft designed from the ground up , it is a modified 737 , and has parts and design elements shoehorned onto it that make it inherently unsafe.

No amount of automation can correct a bad culture or a flawed design.

LiamaDelta

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743864#Comment_121743864

Machines make plenty of errors if there isn't the competence to operate/program/maintain them.

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744415#Comment_121744415

I guess the safety and quality control in companies like Audi, Skoda, VW etc. have really suffered since their factories went almost fully automated...

LiamaDelta

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744396#Comment_121744396

You're just proving the point that massive culture differences exist in the companies. Also there is no point in comparing one thing that both of them have done. Both have managed to cut costs and be lean, however we are only talking about one company that has done it and is now suffering enormously.

Tenzor07

Right, I get it this is boards if i say something is white then someone else will come on and say "no it's black.."

I don't have the answers to a global corporations issues and neither does anyone else in here so my opinions are based on what I read in the news like anyone else.

The issues happening within this company are more a symbol of the extreme capitalism and corporate greed present in any large U.S corporate body where the aim is to cut costs, increase profits and shareholder returns and the gaps between the average workers and the CEO's keeps growing rapidly every year.

Hotblack Desiato

like I've said already machines don't make errors meaning safety is improved

Naive in the extreme, like saying Airbus can't crash because automation.

The machine does what it's been told to do based on the information it's been given.

It doesn't know whether that information is erroneous or whether the instructions are erroneous.

Tenzor07

Didnt't say an aircraft wouldn't crash, did say that the human error factor can be reduced by additional automation, common sense would say that a new robotic system being installed into a factory won't be programmed by high school project students but by qualified engineers... If you are an experienced and highly qualified robotics engineer then I will bow to your superior knowledge however...

mikewest

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121745139#Comment_121745139

You are falling for the fallacy that automation equals an improvement in quality culture. Robotizing elements of the production should reduce the errors/faults on that line as long as good QA/QC is maintained on the finished product from that line. However it will not improve the overall QA/QC as many elements still require manual assembly, in fact having the increased automation can reduce overall QA/QC as the assumption gets made that there is less fault occurance and the eye gets taken off the ball. The quality culture of a company or facility (quality assurance, quality control and management) is seperate from the level or type of automation. If the quality culture is faulty, then the risk is that there will be misses on the QC checks on the automation as well. (I have worked as an automation engineer but not robotics).

Back Home

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744415#Comment_121744415

Can you list the design elements shoehorned onto it that make it inherently unsafe?

Tenger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744396#Comment_121744396

So you just ignored my main point about managers ignoring memo's from engineers about the design?

That is the main issue around "culture" that people are referring to.

The union/non-union is a global issue. But in this case adds fuel to the fire.

I do agree with your point that the ongoing Boeing debacle is a distilled synopsis of hyper capitalism, where market share, stockholder dividends, Executive bonuses and share price have a greater weight in the boardroom than developing a quality product with longevity and reputation. Other company are doing the same but haven't hit rocky ground in the dame way that Boeing has.

Am I right in saying that one of the ME carriers declined any B787s from South Carolina plant?

Tenzor07

Nope, it all boils down to the points I've already made and you have referenced there...

"Aircraft buyers like Clark have implored Boeing for years to stop worrying about financial metrics like free cash flow, market value, dividends or executive bonuses. Instead, the customers say, Boeing needs to convince employees, airlines and investors that its No. 1 focus is on producing the best planes."

Read more at:

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/boeings-legacy-vanished-into-thin-air-saving-it-will-take-years/articleshow/106847762.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

Turbulent Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121745307#Comment_121745307

Exactly this. Quality culture is about having the mindset of striving for the highest-quality products, and using continuous analysis and learning to achieve it. Boeing's repeated production issues indicate to me that they don't have this mindset.

As an aside, I develop products in a different safety-critical industry. Automation is always very carefully considered - just because you can automate doesn't mean that you should. It can be useful, but both people and machines make mistakes, and you need an underlying quality approach that can handle failures from any source.

L1011

In this case, automation should reduce the huge number of incorrectly drilled holes and buggered up rivets needing fixing that Spirit have - bad riveting caused the repair work that may have caused the bolts to be out in the Alaska case - but it won't fix the rotten race to the bottom culture that Boeing and Spirit have.

Reducing the number of failures could just make the remaining ones harder to detect as there'll be even less oversight.

andy1249

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121745437#Comment_121745437

All listed here under aerodynamic changes , engine repositioning requiring the subsequently fatal MCAS system , along with many others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_MAX

A Boeing employee quote " This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys "

And its not just a Wiki source , every major news network in the world carried the same information after the two crashes.

Back to my point , Automation is only an improvement if you have People that are expert in Automation and Aviation Engineering implementing it , if you have clowns supervised by monkeys implementing it , then the problem becomes a lot worse.

If a person liable to make an incompetent mistake programs a robot to do a task , then we now have a robot that will reproduce that exact same mistake on everything.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121745139#Comment_121745139

Or the human error quotient can become endemic where a faulty human programmes the robot! Speaking in absolutes is always a problem. Things are scales of black and white rather than purely black or purely white.