Boeing 737 Max

Back Home

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121748283#Comment_121748283

 You said it is a modified 737 , and has parts and design elements shoehorned onto it that make it inherently unsafe.

That's rubbish, https://seekingalpha.com/article/4286602-boeing-737-max-misconceptions-engineers-view

Back Home

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121748283#Comment_121748283

Some facts for you. https://www.airlineratings.com/news/aviation-safety-expert-reviews-netflix-downfall-documentary/

andy1249

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121750187#Comment_121750187

Absolutely Sick article trying to shift the blame from where it has quite rightly been firmly established , and that is with Boeing and its culture.

I wonder how much that Judas took to write that pile of garbage , and may he choke on the proceeds !

andy1249

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121750137#Comment_121750137

Facts are facts , Boeings own information say it is a modification of a 737 ..... End of Story

Back Home

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121750253#Comment_121750253

There really is no point engaging with boys like you.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121745139#Comment_121745139

Try reading what I actually posted.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121745437#Comment_121745437

How about the arm-cycle workout if you get into an out of trim condition? That's assuming MCAS hasn't killed you already.

Yeah we all know hit the two CUT OUT switches. But you'll still have a hard time defeating the aerodynamic loads on the manual trim. So if your aircraft is diving out of control, you might have to increase the descent rate to unload the tailplane so you can trim it and then hopefully pull out in time. *clap*

Suvarnabhumi

Anyone done a long flight on the 737 Max 8, a Turkish Airlines one in particular?

I'm looking at Dublin to Dar es Salaam (Tansania) via Istanbul. The second leg is over 7 hours on the 737. I have no concerns about safety, just the thought of a long haul on a single ailse plane is putting me off.

Anyone got any experiences?

ricimaki

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121802716#Comment_121802716

I've done 6 and a bit hours transatlantic on an Airbus A321LR - I image it will be quite similiar.

It's fine - not amazing, but also not bad either.

joujoujou

Related or not, I'm not sure to be honest.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68534703

ULEZ23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121802716#Comment_121802716

Qatar are usually very competitive in that route and use widebody, getting a quote direct from their website is usually the most competitive. Imo worth a few extra € to avoid a narrow body on a long trip (the worst part for me is access to toilet/ going for a wander). They also have a decent stopover option of free hotel and a chance to see Doha, another crazy Middle East city infrastructure wise.

john boye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121901216#Comment_121901216

Turning Whistleblower can put massive pressure on people. Especially against such a big organisation like Boeing.

Suvarnabhumi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121904303#Comment_121904303

I did that Doha stopover in 2022 on the way to Thailand. Worst place I’ve ever visited! Even at free, I felt like I’d been ripped off 😂

JohnC.

Boeing CEO and some others to step down. At the end of the year.

Tenzor07

Yeap, big reshuffle of the Deck chairs: https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/25/boeing-ceo-board-chair-commercial-head-out-737-max-crisis.html

Noxegon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121907978#Comment_121907978

Conversely, I enjoyed Doha. Easy to get around by metro, public artwork all over the place, interesting museums, and very friendly people.

I don't see myself rushing to return, but I had a very pleasant four days there.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121936971#Comment_121936971

This is performative rather than functional IMO. Boeing have already lost a CEO to their MAX quality issues. Here we are 3 years later, with if not a continuing decline, certainly a lack of any improvement or cultural shift to a quality focused, right first time environment.

Quality and the fostering of right 1st time culture are never easy, it's never cheap, and it's not a matter of just achieving it, it really demands a huge amount of focus to maintaining it. Further it involves constantly evolving metrics, not an acceptance of just meeting the KPI, it's shifting forward again once the original KPIs are the norm.

Full disclosure, I own shares in Boeing. I have traded in and out of them over the last 7yrs or so. Boeing as it currently exists? Is IMHO facing serious headwinds. Their only saving grace in the market for new civil aircraft at the moment? Isn't their size, quality or technology, it's that Airbus don't have free slots to soak up any customers who cancel their Boeing orders.

I posted a while back about Boeing being too big to fail. They will be supported by US Govt, but I do feel the risk of a split in the military/Civil divisions is a bigger possibility than ever before. Not a slam dunk definite, but I'm seeing a 5% chance and with the possibility of a criminal case re: the Alaska Airlines flight? It's unlikely but still a risk.

The pile of cash Boeing has burned through via poor management, poor quality and lax standard control is absolutely staggering.

josip

The new CEO has an accounting rather than an engineering background. I don't expect much culture change.

gossamerfabric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121937331#Comment_121937331

Ryanair's chances of getting more heavily discounted 737 8200s just went up. that 200 seater plane will fulfill the role Ryanair need for the next 20 years regardless of what happens with new Max10 or replacement narrowbody design.

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121937331#Comment_121937331

Calhoun will stay on for the year according to news reports, so i am sure they're looking for a replacement... 2nd one to go since the Max crisis..

HTCOne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121937470#Comment_121937470

The problem for FR is the EZY and WIZZ A321-Neos being delivered with 240 seats have a lower CASM than the 8200. Their saving grace is that they likely got the 8200s for a song, whereas Airbus don't particularly need to discount the A21N, it's the most in demand commercial jet in the world right now with all the variants and breadth of capability.

gossamerfabric

Ryanair don't publish their CASM but it is generally agreed to be markedly lower than Wizz Air despite having so many 737-800 in the fleet.

Ryanair claim the 8200 is 16% more efficient than the 800 and they claim the max10 will burn 20% less than an 800 so there isn't much in it in terms of CASM between them.

If Boeing can't deliver the Max 10 they can offer a few hundred more of the 8200 at the right price and Ryanair will happily take them.

There is a reason why the Ryanair share price is so high and it isn't irrational exuberance.

see page 8 of https://corporate.ryanair.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Ryanair-2023-Sustainability-Report.pdf

HTCOne

All depends on how the figures are calculated to be fair. Very generally, the 737 variants have better CASM than their direct A320 rival in same config on routes under 90 mins (ish) (or 2 hours if you believe the most optimistic Boeing salesperson) due the lower weight of the 737 (A320 powered cargo deck floors are a major factor in this apparently....heavy). The aerodynamics of the A320 and more modern wing overtake the weight disadvantage on routes over 90 ish /120 mins...according to airlines that operate both types anyway.

But this is all superceded by what you ultimately pay for the airframe in the end. Boeing are selling at greater discounts than Airbus for obvious reasons now, so the gap at the end of the day is likely minimal.

In theory you can get a MAX much sooner than an A320 due the Airbus backlog. In reality the FAA have blocked the opening of the Everett 737 line due to Quality Control issues in Boeing. This is costing them hundreds of deliveries per year.

A big reason Boeing customers aren't just switching to Airbus is that the A320 line is sold out til 2030 at least.

gossamerfabric

wizz air are flying to eastern europe and beyond on long stage lenghts at low profit where as Ryanair are flying to western and central europe where they make good rasm.

RASM and CASM would be much better on Ryanair.

Easyjet aren't even at the races and likely to be bought by one of the big operators when thez next find themselves in difficulty.

Hotblack Desiato

Ryanair have all the figures at their fingertips.

Yes 'core' Ryanair only operates 737s, but the group has Airbus fleets. If they thought it would pay to get out of having Boeings they would. Ditto for Airbus. So far it seems they're quite happy to have both.

@banie01 Great post. There's a strange dichotomy at Boeing between innovation (787) and just pumping out the same old airframes with minimal change (737). Difference is when Airbus innovated, they got it right even though FBW and sidestick was a massive cultural change back in the day. When Boeing innovated with the 787 lots of things went wrong. Airbus have been playing a blinder tbh, they weren't afraid to go back to the drawing board with the A350 to get it right (XWB) and accept a delay to getting to market (long term gains vs. short term profits), they're not the ones paying billions in compensation and fines due to pushing out a product rushed out to market that was defective. They have an even bigger order book than Boeing does, and aren't deeply discounting to 2 big customers (Southwest and Ryanair) to the point where you'd have to wonder if Boeing is making money on those airframes at all.

Boeing is increasingly resembling the last years of McDonnell Douglas.

HTCOne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121939534#Comment_121939534

For sure they have the figures. It doesn't help them that Airbus refuse to negotiate with them.

Up until now, Ryanair were able to capitalise on either Boeing or global crisis to get excellent deals on airplanes. The difference now is Boeing can't build them due to the -7 and -10 being held up in certification and delivery of the other variants being held up by production & quality control issues. Ryanair can't get the airplanes they need right now whilst we are at the top of the demand curve. But who knows what the future holds.....

Hotblack Desiato

Boeing is increasingly resembling the last years of McDonnell Douglas.

What I should have added is that MDD had all sorts of concepts in those years which everyone knew they didn't have the capital to develop, some less fanciful than the MAX-10, some more.

They only got the MD-11 over the line with lots of outsourcing and third-party investment, and it was still crap, a killer and uneconomic.

Does Boeing really have the resources to develop an all-new 737 replacement, which they've been putting off for so long?

If it happens as a Chinese joint venture it'll signal the slow death of Boeing.

If it doesn't happen, it'll signal the slow death of Boeing...

I wouldn't bet money on the MAX-10 ever flying

Captain_Crash

Well the MAX 10 has flown already….. I’ve seen it 😉 but who knows if it ever will with pax at this rate! Maybe this pic I took at Boeing field will be one for the archives haha

Hotblack Desiato

Hope they are factoring tailstrikes into their operating cost figures 😁

Tenzor07

MAX-10's have been flying to Airshows and on test flights for years now... Fine aircraft but not sure it will ever see commercial service..