The new recycling system

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767243#Comment_121767243

Of course you've a smart comment that completely misses the point.

Does a new product work out of the box every single time? No. The more you buy of something brand new, the more likelihood of encountering an issue on day one. Its very simple probability, if theres a 1% chance of an issue on day 1 and you buy 1 item, the expected number of issues is 0. If you buy 1800, the expected number of issues is 1800*0.01 = 18. That logic is true for "every single machine on the planet".

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121765984#Comment_121765984

I'd call it constructive littering. Clearly the materials have value as that's what proponents of the scheme have argued since the start. So it's not litter as such, it's a resource there to be collected.

And since this RVM machine policy is the brainchild of Ossian Smyth and Return, it's up to them to sort this out with the retailers and up to them to collect these resources. It was as predictable as night follows day here in Ireland.

As it is, I'd much rather see cans and bottles dumped in Lidl than in our local roadside ditches.....

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767169#Comment_121767169

As I said, I don't consider it littering and wouldn't think any less of someone who responds like that to a faulty RVM. And in some stores people are being advised to do this.

Did they not test them? They've had long time to prepare for this. We've been told many many times we're just copying what worked in other countries? Have the machines and system not been tested abroad also?

If they haven't been sufficiently tested, and issues at the start are to be expected - then all the more reason why in the rollout period arrangements should have been made to take that into account.

But I guess basic competence is too much to expect from those making money from this racket.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767302#Comment_121767302

So you've completely made up a term? Very good.

Those containers wont go to the scheme. They will go to a private waste collector just like putting them in your green bin. By leaving them there you're passing on the responsibility to dispose of your waste. You don't have permission to leave them there. That's called literring.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767308#Comment_121767308

Eh... you seem to have lost sight of the stated purpose of the scheme - to reduce littering in the environment. You can argue of course that a Lidl store is part of the environment but at least here you have the materials nicely gathered readied for collection. Over to the boyos who devised the scheme to do this.

You see this up and down the country wherever there are bins. They get full, the LA doesn't empty them in a timely way and people just leave stuff beside them. The LA then either removes the bin or reduces the slot, so then people just feck their stuff wherever. Which is better - nicely collected up or strewn all over?

We're Irish people not bleedin Germans who follow every direction!

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767268#Comment_121767268

A new products failure rate is far less than a product that has been used for a prolonged period.

You were arguing the opposite.

If you install 1800 brand new machines, there are going to be issues at the start. If the problems are still there next year, then there's a fundametal flaw with the system.

The problems should be more pronounced next year as natural wear and tear of the machines accumulate.

I'm starting to question that PHD you to claim have "in the area".

GarlicBed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766048#Comment_121766048

I don't even bother with the bottle bank anymore.

just chuck them in the normal bin.

greasepalm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767338#Comment_121767338

Normal bin is not for glass and would make bin heavier and more hassle sorting through the waste.

Plenty of bins around that can take glass for recycling.

On all those recycling bins say if full DO NOT dump below outside as your littering and could be fined. No difference in Aldi or other places .

Many times as said rejects with logo or the new barcode bring inside the store for refund .

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767304#Comment_121767304

You understand these machines are identical to the machines abroad. The functionality of the machines does not need to be tested. Its clear they work considering they do abroad but that when you buy a new large piece of equipment the responsibility to ensure it meets the manufacturing specs lies with the purchaser i.e. the retailer. You've never bought a new product from a shop, brought it home and found out it didn't work properly? Now imagine buying 1800, the chance of it happening scales with that.

Shops has plenty of time to buy and test these in advance. Some will still break. There's no getting around the Day 1 conundrum when purchasing new equipment. It seems like you and other have never bought and tested new large equipment. Whats happening is perfectly normal.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767334#Comment_121767334

I was not arguing the opposite, I was arguing that we have 1800 brand new pieces of equipment and issues with some of them on day 1 and month 1 is perfectly normal. You decided my argument was different.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767308#Comment_121767308

But people have lives and see this scheme as an inconvenience on theirs, not a vocation.

This is a chore thrust upon them which they will already have to fit into their busy lives. You seem to look at it as the opposite, this scheme is their life now and anything else they use do is less important.

So if someone gets the bus into town to run multiple errands, maybe meet a friend for lunch and go the cinema, their first stop maybe the RVM, if they can't process their trash, they aren't ringing their friend and saying they have to cancel lunch and the cinema I have to go home with my bag of rubbish.

It's getting dumped, it's either dumped beside the machines, in the car park or in a general waste bin (if one can be found).

Again this was all explained to you with Holland cited as an example, you couldn't dismiss it quick enough.

Best case scenario for the environment is that it gets dumped beside the machine. You should be happy about that.

This is about the environment, isn't it?

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767333#Comment_121767333

Its not Lidls job to dispose of your rubbish.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767379#Comment_121767379

This isn't Day 1. The scheme has been coming from months. It is an entirely different scenario to a random purchase by a consumer of an item. That is an absurd comparison.

People operating such equipment as part of a rolled out scheme, you test the equipment before day one. You have a process to do this. If you don't have a process to do this, or agents don't avail of it - that is not perfectly normal, that is inadequate testing and basic incompetence.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767385#Comment_121767385

Well no. You argued the problems are caused by brand new machines, and if they were still to give problems in a year they would be a major flaw.

But in fact the opposite is true, the failure rate of these machines should more acute in a years time than they are now.

This isn't very hard to understand TBF.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767399#Comment_121767399

Its week 3. It's still called the Day 1 conundrum (or problem). Its the general term for brand new equipment failing at the very start of its lifecycle.

You could test it for several weeks before rolling it out and it breaks on day 1. That's normal. It happens all the time. None of this is incompetence on ReTurns part. It is up to Lidl/Tesco etc. to test their own machines.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767408#Comment_121767408

If you test it for several weeks before rolling it out and you have large number on breaks on day 1 - that is inadequate testing.

If Lidl \ Tesco didn't test their machines, the responsibility failure and incompetence is on them also.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767401#Comment_121767401

So you don't think if the problems are still there in a year there's no problem? I'll hold you to that one.

the opposite is true

Both are true. They're not mutually exclusive. A high number of issues on Day 1. Then no problems for a while. Then a few problems. Then as they near the end of their lifecycle, they will all start to break down at a similar time.

This isn't very hard to understand TBF.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767413#Comment_121767413

Grand, we agree that any machine breaking doesn't reflect on ReTurn. Not their role to test machines, that responsibility is delegated to retailers.

While the machines are down, the retailer is losing money.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767417#Comment_121767417

But both aren't true are they?

A brand new machine has a miniscule failure rate, this rate becomes more acute the more the machines is used. It's why machines need to be maintained.

Using your logic second hand cars should be more expensive than new ones.

It's hilarious nonsense.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767421#Comment_121767421

I didn't say that.

It is ReTurn's role to provide a process by which the machines can be tested in an integrated manner with the system.

I don't know the reasons why machines are breaking, the main responsibility may well be with the retailers, but ReTurn have a role to play here also.

L1011

Bathtub curve applies to mechanical and electrical failures - brand new stuff breaks more as it beds in; as stuff ages it starts to wear out. Lowest failure rate is some time after brand new.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767437#Comment_121767437

Its commonly accepted in industry. Its planned for.

If you buy 1800 of something, some wont work on day one. Its that simple. The failure curve isn't what you think it is.

Using your logic second hand cars should be more expensive than new ones.

It takes some intentional mental gymnastics to arrive at that conclusion. Especially considering if the car you buy doesn't work correctly, they fix it....for free... A car that has been in operation for several weeks has overcome the day one problem...

You really enjoy taking peoples arguments and twisting them to suit narratives.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767463#Comment_121767463

Its ReTurns job to tell the retailers what the spec is for the machines and to collect the materials from them. Its not their job to micromanage retailers.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767473#Comment_121767473

Its commonly accepted in industry. Its planned for.

If you buy 1800 of something, some wont work on day one. Its that simple. The failure curve isn't what you think it is.

What in the name of Jesus are you talking about?

The failure rate of a machine is more acute after prolonged usage than it is on day 1.

I have no idea what industry you are citing that share your fantasy, but you are making a holy show of yourself.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767481#Comment_121767481

There's nothing in my post about micro-managing retailers. The retailers cannot properly test the machines if ReTurn as operators of the scheme at a national level do not facilitate a proper integrated test or didn't spec the machines to run proper tests.

bog master

14 Days in and what do we have?

It appears a large part of the public do not understand or are aware of this scheme.

They read about it online and or in the media and hear various about various problems.

The CEO contradicts the ReTurn website.

Various recycling rates and targets are bandied about like loose confetti-who do you believe?

Reports of machines not working or not turned on or just plain broken.

And to my mind, we the public who for the most part are doing our duty by recycling at a good rate are going to pay more to their waste collectors

and pay to fund this quango.

bog master

Congratulations Irish people to how we handled and accepted the plastic bag issue, while those in California,,,,,,

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/other/california-s-plastic-bag-ban-backfires-after-customers-just-start-dumping-thicker-and-heavier-10-cent-reusable-carriers-instead-triggering-more-pollution-than-ever/ar-BB1ied5O?ocid=mailsignout&pc=U591&cvid=eb144e3e671b4661908cd5833167b0fb&ei=14

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767491#Comment_121767491

At no point have I made the argument you’re trying to put in my mouth.

Day one isn’t the lowest failure rate for a machine like you’re saying. You’re simply wrong.

Youve clearly never bought or implemented machines in bulk. You’ve to factor in faulty purchases. It really is simple but somehow you complicate it to suit a nonsense argument.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767492#Comment_121767492

Micro managing would be specing how to manage the machine including testing functionality….

appledrop

Was at my local Tesco today and two of the three machines were broken.

Also I had a few bottles but as I was walking I wasn't going to drag them all the way there and possibly back.

I'll have to wait until a day I'm driving, I'm sure that will help the environment, especially as I already recycled all these plastic bottles and cans in my green bin.