Deposit return scheme (recycling)

zell12

On Radio1, the breakdown of the cost for retailers is horrendous!

Retailer says she needs 666 bottles/day in order to break even (@ 2.2c each), and then there is extra electricity atop that

Re-turn CEO now on

Rigor Mortis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029466#Comment_122029466

To answer a few questions

The breakdown levels seem to be high and in particular in one retailer. Its strange cos with the exception of two of the manufacturers, these machines are around for years. But i do know from work that the down time has reduced consistently since week one and is now getting to where it needs to be.

Attached caps have nothing to do with the scheme. Thats a separate EU law and it is mandatory across the Eu by July 1. The ask to keep them on appears to be with one retailer only and again is not in line with the scheme guidance.

Takeback for online would be hugely expensive. you cant compare a fridge that you buy once to a requirement for a retailer to take back what is possibly the faastest moving consumer good. That said, i think that this may be somethign they end up addressing.

The Google pay thing or some version will probably happen. I would imagine that the intention was to keep it simple from the start.

Shop exemptions are the norm and were demanded by the retail sector. These schemes arent easy to implement and although the retailer gets a fee, for some they wont see the value at first. From what I'm hearing the UK scheme will have even greater exemption levels. Normal shops are not exempt from charging.

Re-turn keeps the unclaimed deposits. It is part of what funds the scheme. Again, this is the norm across schemes.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029645#Comment_122029645

The exemption here is 250 square metres. What's the UK exemption?

I read that Wales seem to be looking at a different solution retaining a role for kerbside collection:

Education and engagement will therefore need to be a key intervention in
the introduction of the DRS and communications will need to counter
perceptions that the scheme unfairly places the burden for recycling on
consumers and offers little benefit over existing recycling kerbside
recycling.

https://cyfarfodyddpwyllgor.siryfflint.gov.uk/documents/s500002742/Welsh%20Government%20Deposit%20Return%20Scheme.pdf?LLL=1#:~:text=The%20DRS%20in%20Wales%20is,covered%20by%20the%20DRS%20producers.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029466#Comment_122029466

Why is there no take-back requirement for online delivery? When I buy a new fridge etc the delivery company is required to collect my old one (if I wish). The same should apply here.

Do you want your food delivered in the same vehicle that collects trash? Bottles and cans left outside with rats and dogs píssing on them?

Why the need for a printed voucher? Surely the option for direct pay to Google Pay etc should have been designed from the start?

Because a voucher makes you consume more, not less. The voucher also locks you into that large retailer.

It's to increase footfall to the larger retailers, it's no secret it's on the website.

Why are some shops allowed to be exempt from collection? Are they also exempt from the charge?

I wouldn't shop in a place that also sorted through trash. No one is exempt. The retailer gets charged the deposit.

Manual processing has to be manual inspected one by one, the smaller retailers were asked for hand held scanners but were told no.

Too much hassle.

Who is keeping the balance of the unclaimed amounts?

Re-Turn.

Chit Ching. The harder they fail the richer they get and it's the consumers fault.

You don't think this lunacy was designed for the benefit of the environment or the consumer, do you?

ednwireland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029402#Comment_122029402

The French government has postponed until fall its decision on introducing a bottle deposit scheme. Compliant with European goals, such a system would nonetheless clash with efforts by local authorities to collect and resell used plastic.

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/environment/article/2023/07/17/bottle-deposits-a-crucial-factor-in-reducing-plastic-use_6056022_114.html#:~:text=The%20French%20government%20has%20postponed,collect%20and%20resell%20used%20plastic.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029466#Comment_122029466

The fixed bottle caps is a seperate EU directive; and the shops asking for them to be removed are doing it of their own accord; possibly due to using flimsy heaps of crap as machines. Neither is part of the scheme. See also flimsy heaps of crap for breakdowns - it seems that Lidl machines are overwhelmingly the ones reported here as breaking down and they happen to be the ones asking you to take the caps off to reduce strain on the crushing/shredding components…

Shops are exempt based on size, they are not exempt from charging

The scheme operator is funded in part by unclaimed deposits.

Ivor_Guddon

Was a lad in glasnevin who printed off fake labels or the barcodes whatever is used for the machines and made over €200 in 3 days labelling old cans etc

Not sure if he is still at it , if so fair play

Daith

There's talk of increasing the deposit rate to motivate people, but also I think if we do that, then if all machines are broken in a shop, you should be able to get a voucher from customer service and it should be double or triple the deposit fee.

ednwireland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029945#Comment_122029945

Re-turn would argue that they don't supply the machines .............

Badly Drunk Boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122027146#Comment_122027146

They've still got big sellers like Monster still without deposit. Going to probably be a lot of stuff flogged off cheap in June at this rate.

I do my Tesco shopping online, and from the start of February, only the Re-turn/deposit version of Monster was available (and a very small range too!). I've also seen Monster on sale in Adli, also with the deposit.

I don't go to Dunnes so maybe that's where you have seen the deposit-less version, but I definitely haven't.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030034#Comment_122030034

It was a (very large) Centra

The vast majority of products in that pack size are bought in non-supermarket retailers; supermarkets volume of soft drinks is done in 1L+ bottles (was going to say 2L but they're actually pretty rare now due to Coke shrinkflation) and multipacks. This is why a figure of what is and isn't logoed in a supermarket is really no use for figuring out the total in the market.

Supervalu near me has the largest range of chilled 330-500ml soft drinks I've ever seen in a supermarket and even then, its a fraction of what a normal convenience store has.

Rigor Mortis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029665#Comment_122029665

Not published yet, but I work in the packaging industry and the last briefing we got was that they were looking at broader exemptions. This may be because other than politics, one of the main reasons the Scotish early launch got binned was retailer antipathy.

Wales has been talking about digital kerbside options for a while but the trials have not stacked up in the way that would suggest a large scheme would work. I would imagine when the new uk regulations are published (possibly in the coming days) that they will leave the door open to a digital solution long term, although probably not a kerbside one.

bog master

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029803#Comment_122029803

I was under the impression from the Minister that unclaimed deposits funds the scheme. If not, where is this other funding coming from?

Ivor_Guddon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029957#Comment_122029957

i've actually stopped buying 24 box cans , can't be fecked tbh

Rigor Mortis

Other funding comes from producer fee, between 2 and 5c for every bottle put on the market and sale of plastic back to the producers when its collected.

For anyone on here who was saying that the plastic would go in the incinerator, this is the reason it wont, its too valuable. Now its separate from all the other waste, it is even more valuable.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030062#Comment_122030062

Selling on the returned items, especially the cans.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030062#Comment_122030062

Producers pay a fee per item. Re-turn get to sell the material, the aluminium has an appreciable value and the PET has some limited, highly fluctuating, value.

Genghis

The issue of how much re-turn are cashing in from unclaimed deposits mentioned at start of Liveline. They are coming to it later in the show.

jj880

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029694#Comment_122029694

Very good article. After removing the pay wall some excellent (and familiar) points are raised:

Charlotte Soulary, head of advocacy at Zero Waste, also lamented the confusion in the debates. "Behind the deposit, there's the issue of establishing a value for a container, but recycling and reuse have nothing to do with that. The aim is to put an end to plastic pollution, and the deposit could have a detrimental effect by further encouraging plastic consumption," she said.

…

Minister for Ecological Transition and Territorial Cohesion Christophe Béchu doesn't intend to get bogged down in a narrow debate over deposits either, and he has broadened the issue to encompass plastic pollution. "If we don't reverse the curve," he said, "the plastics industry will account for 6% to 10% of greenhouse gas emissions by mid-century. By 2050, there will be as much plastic in the ocean as there are fish."

…

Will a deposit for recycling plastic bottles see the light of day in France? "There's no question of simply saying, 'If you don't want the deposit, okay, we won't implement it'," said Béchu. "No more so than declaring, 'We need to make this system widespread'." According to the minister, the country must continue looking for alternatives that will enable it to meet its recycling goals.

Repak made a superb submission here regarding concerns with Re-Turn.

The question is will the French have a pantomime consultation process then ignore everything like our gombeens or will they actually listen before trying to ram a money grabbing shambles down everyone's throats?

I know where my money would be on how the French will do it.

bog master

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030075#Comment_122030075

If it was so valuable why is 70% of it being incinerated?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030322#Comment_122030322

Its not massively valuable; and plucking it out of contaminated mixed recycling isn't cheap.

Basically - despite the constant claims that domestic recycling "worked", it really didn't. One idiot that puts nappies in their recycling bin makes the entire truckload useless; and there's plenty of those idiots around.

bog master

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030347#Comment_122030347

I honestly don't know if that whole truckload becomes contaminated. I read a report which of course I cannot find now, I believe it was EU that the price being paid for plastic for recycling varied massively over a certain 10 year period, and in some instances it achieved a minus price and therefore the report recommended not to rely on the value in any recycling plans.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030596#Comment_122030596

Aluminium has a much more stable value - well, it still goes up and down a lot but the baseline value is still pretty solid.

Only metals are like that really - glass, paper/carboard and plastic flakes are not reliable.

This site will give you one or two price charts then ask you to sign up, which I'm not doing, but you can see changes from negative value to hundreds of £STG per tonne over the course of a year for some materials

https://www.letsrecycle.com/prices/glass/glass-prices-2021/

LambshankRedemption

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122028815#Comment_122028815

But actual data is not available which is why you find yourself counting bottles in your local shop. If you (somehow) found your way into ReTurn HQ and got a copy of the actual internal reports, L1011 would still say your numbers are not valid because your method of obtaining them was not above board.

Archeron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030596#Comment_122030596

It doesn't, and the idea of a nappy ruining a truck load of recycling is simply not true. I've posted on this thread before about my experience working on a sorting line in a major waste company, the worst a nappy or contamination will do is lose the few items it touches. I really dont understand where this idea comes from (guessing its return looking desperately for excuses to justify their existence).

fritzelly

Just been in lidl, Chinese lad with 6 big black bin liners full to the brim using both machines, no wonder they're always out of order if businesses are filling them up, plus the floor was covered in various liquids for the staff to clean

mrshopkeeper

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029573#Comment_122029573

I heard the latter end of this interview on Radio 1. Fair dues to the listner who text in and asked very succinctly what exactly happens to the returned product. Unsurprisingly the response from the CEO was not very informative, and the host did not follow up to ask for the question to be answered.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030673#Comment_122030673

Re-turn aren't going to have actual figures cause they also don't know what old stock shops have; but they would be able to make a fairly accurate market-wide estimate.

Counting stuff on shops website is not an acceptable substitute figure, basically.

In the large Centra I've been using as an example, at lunchtime today they had non-deposit stock for about a third of the in-scope shelf space in the fridge still - the three main Coke products have long since changed over there, but there was Dr Pepper, Monster, Prime, Club and other well known brands still non-deposit.

There was a lot more shelf space for Coke products than anything else, I'd say they still restock those faster than others even with that but its still not going to be 90% of sales.

nachouser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030996#Comment_122030996

In fairness, the market share of Centra is tiny. 2% maybe? It would stand to reason that Centra would have more older stock than Dunnes, Tesco, Supervalu, Aldi, Lidl etc just from supply chain logistics alone, never mind footfall.

downtheroad

Taken just now at my local Aldi.

There probably more bottles and cans in that cage than in the machine (which isn't working surprisingly)