I resent spending money on cars, why isn't there an EV for me

System

This discussion was created from comments split from: I need to buy a new car.

Stevie2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527344#Comment_120527344

Yeah the war killed the EV cost savings

You just have the hassle of owning an EV now without the financial benefit, but EU have that covered with ICE ban

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527390#Comment_120527390

I'd love to see the math that justifies that statement

drunkmonkey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527390#Comment_120527390

Can't blame Putin for everything, other EU countries don't have the same problem, I'd be looking at Government policy.

ICE is far from dead, we could end up like Cuba and people deciding to nurse on their cars rather than buy something they don't want in 2030. Oil producers can drop to $20 a barrel and make a good profit.

Stevie2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527453#Comment_120527453

Electricity prices have went through the roof

That math good enough for you?

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527566#Comment_120527566

so did petrol prices.

electricity still significantly cheaper to run.

Have you actually done the math or what?

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527566#Comment_120527566

Math normally contains things like numbers and equations, so no, not good enough for me

Old diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527557#Comment_120527557

Alternatively.....

1) EV technology will continue to evolve up to 2030 and beyond - both cars and infrastructure.....

So people for whome EVs don't work in 2023 will likely be driving them in 2032 happily enough.

2) worth noting that very few people in Ireland have experienced the very best of EV technology both cars and charging infrastructure in *2023*.

So no 400 mile Lucid Airs?????.

No 18 minutes to 80 percent on a 300 kW charger in a Taycan....

No driving to Rome in a Tesla with the car guiding you to superchargers along the way - with 50 percent added to the battery in 12 to 15 mins on V3 Supercharger.

No Nio battery swops in 5 mins....

Those are things happening in the wider EV world *today*.

By the time 2030 comes along I expect.....

1) cost of energy to be resolved for nothing to do with EV reasons.... Cost of electricity won't be fixed to help a Tesla driver. It will however be fixed to help 85 year old Mike who lives on an old age pension.... And Mary who employs 200 people in her family business.

2) a realisation that energy crisis probably needs more efficient use of energy. So EVs get rewarded over eFuels or hydrogen in that scenario. (Need to minimise use of current fossil fuels.

3) I think that Vehicle to grid should be here by 2035....

4) no one has yet come up with the costs of keeping older cars on the roads indefinitely as simply A to B transport. Everyone measures 40 mins at a charge point.....

No one measures the days of work needed to refurb an old ICE car just to get out of driving an EV.....

People talk of 10,000 to replace an EV battery....

But you'd quickly hit 10 k if commiting to an old car indefinitely.....

My guess.....

Current hardcore pro keeping old cars on the road normal drivers will decide that they can live with EVs after all.

Especially as the benchmark in 2035 isn't going to be a 40 kwh Nissan Leaf and 45 mins at a 50 kW charger in a wet and dark yard in Carlow....

It will be....

"Added 100 miles in 8 mins at a purpose built charging hub fully lit with excellent facilities. Had a coffee - came out and we had 170 miles added because the car was ready before we were"

Old diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527915#Comment_120527915

But "I can't afford a Lucid or a Taycan"

The post I quoted referenced 2030.....

The ban is 2035....

Historically new innovativation in cars always started in expensive high end vehicles.

Based on previous history in terms of cars - I think its reasonable to expect Lucid or Taycan capability in range or charging.

To start coming down to cheaper cars by 2030.....

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527566#Comment_120527566

No. And it looks you base your entire argument on maths you haven't even done? Not even "man math"?

Here's a quick one for you. I pay 7.9c per kWh night rate incl. VAT. I also have a large solar PV setup so I charge my car in summer from the sun, but I will disregard that

My large luxury EV uses about 20kWh per 100km, so costs about 20kWh * 8.5c (including charging losses) => €0.017 per km

If I had a similar large luxury petrol car, it would use about 11l per 100km or €1.56*11l => €0.17 per km

Petrol car costs 10 times as much as EV to fuel!

Stevie2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527959#Comment_120527959

You have some magic rate, as I was on bonkers and cheapest night rate I can find is 20c night, 40c day rate

Can you link me to that 7.9c rate, I'll sign up now :)

Oh so not alone I have to get a magic unit price, I need to spend thousands on solar panels too? Spend thousands for a ROI of a few years, alot of hoops to save a few euro a week on fuel costs

I drive a Kona, it cost me 21k brand new 4 years ago, can you find me an EV that costs 21k brand new and has a range of 800km?

I do 15,000km a year and night rate costs 20c a unit, so at 20kWh/100km would cost me €4 per 100km, the petrol kona I have does 5l per 100k, at 1.60 petrol, it would cost me €8 per 100km. So i'd save €600 a year or €12 a week on fuel if I had an EV, probably less as I do a few long journeys too where I will be paying €40 on rapid chargers to do 250km

Kona EV costs €42,000 brand new, so I'd have to spend probably €27,000 to change my Kona to that and to save that €12 a week

Where do I signup?

Stevie2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527915#Comment_120527915

What can I buy brand new for 21k that will get me around the country? That's what I paid for my current car

My sister bought a brand i20 for 18k 2 years ago, what brand new EV can she replace that with?

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528025#Comment_120528025

I reckon my EVs have saved me €15k in fuel over the past 10 years.

I was trying to explain that to a neighbor who is about to drop €50k on an EV and they probably only drive about 5000km per year. She is giving her 2019 1l Kona with 22000 kms on it to her daughter. She thinks she is going to save 20k a year in fuel :)

Cant stress enough that you buy the car for your needs. Be it petrol, diesel, EV. Buy the one that is matched to both your needs and your pocket.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528025#Comment_120528025

At the low end, driving below national average miles, it's very hard to save money driving an EV. However, if you do lots of miles (think of 300 km a day at home charging) a Tesla Model 3 at 40k suddenly sounds like a really good idea compared to just about any other car in the class, as both the purchase price and cost of running are lower.

Stevie2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528069#Comment_120528069

Exactly, spend 50k to save a few euro a week on fuel, the Irish lol, like everyone buying diesels for the cheap tax in 2008

Yeah you can save alright if you do a crazy amount of driving, have solar, got a good night rate before Ukraine took off etc, the time to buy an EV was 2017 or so when Ioniq came out, that was available for 22k brand new with 200km range then, now you must pay 42k for a Hyundai to get 400km, progress lol

If EV tech was so good, we would have a Fabia equivalent available for 20k, but we must spend 30k+ to buy anything now :)

Old diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528052#Comment_120528052

Currently 18 to 20 k EVs are typically 2nd hand Zoes, Leafs and original Ioniqs.....

However an MG4 is 27 k new - point been that we can expect over the coming years for EV prices to become cheaper when you account for inflation.

Trying to guess 2030 outcomes based on 2023 limitations is tricky.

Manufacturers like VW are aiming to deliver smaller cars.

Like this for 2025.....

Bear in mind inflation also would rise the i20s price by then.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/volkswagen-id-2all-concept-previews-sub-%C2%A322k-electric-car-2026

DownByTheGarden

Who gave the very biased title to this thread ?

See this is the problem. EVs are like a religion. I think im the only sane EV driver left who can actually objectively talk about the good and the not so good things about them.

Just over 10 years ago I think i only knew myself and 3 other personally who had a n EV. They could be got very cheaply then if you did it right.

Since then I know a hell of a lot of people with them now., Its almost like they have joined a religion and cannot speak honestly about them then. Ive see a few people spend hundreds of thousands of euro on EVs and still think they are saving money. Its getting out of hand really.

liamog

Mod Note: @Stevie2001 instead of taking down every thread with your affordability issues, keep the discussion to one place. We all know that EV producers are not yet targeting the economy market it doesn't need to be brought up everywhere.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528226#Comment_120528226

I find most EV drivers can objectively talk about the pro's and cons. We do however have a set of people who would never dream of purchasing a new car and then complain that people who are in a position to spend money on new cars are buying them. It's the same tired arguments that are very little value.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528025#Comment_120528025

At least you're coming up with some math now 😘

Of course an EV is not cheaper for everyone. An old biddy happy with doing 500km per year going to church in her 1993 Toyota Starlet 1.0l, is better off just keeping that car. Better for the planet too. But for someone buying a brand new family size car, it really is a no brainer now based on total cost of ownership alone. If you don't believe it, do some sums for yourself. Say VW Tiguan diesel vs VW ID.4 electric doing 20k km per year

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528025#Comment_120528025

Not only is the 8c per kWh completely unrealistic, the fuel economy stated for the ICE is ridiculously under-estimated. 11L per 100km translates to about 21mpg. I drive a 2L Dieseal that weighs two tonnes. It is regularly over 30mpg, which is only 8L per 100km, or a 25% reduction, and that's on regular roads. Motorway is almost always 40+.

My personal record is about 55mpg when driving to Kerry.

Nobody's denying it's cheaper to run an EV but you don't need to start lying to pad the stats.

cgorzy

New to looking at this stuff as I am now in the hunt for a new car and must say as a low mileage user I found the maths for an ev quite disappointing. At less thank 5K km per year and it not making sense to move to night rate I am working out I would do well to save €400 a year on fuel eaten into in year 1/2 by charger install. Haven’t found upkeep costs enough in the past to make a big dent either but then I am an €80 a tyre person and change ever 10 years so not worried about depreciation so a lot of it is personal. That is only the financials there are lots of other considerations, including what car do I like, what spec would I want etc etc. if it’s between 2 cars the same price that I like equally it’s a no brainer but it never is! Anyway the misconception that a an Ev has to save a fortune was all my own.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528309#Comment_120528309

Not lying dude. I compared my own car, a Tesla Model S, to a similar large performance petrol car, like a BMW 745i or Mercedes S500. If anything I have been conservative about petrol use. When I owned those type of cars in the past, I didn't even manage to average 20MPG

Obviously a brand new frugal diesel small or medium size car will easily do 50MPG average. But that is comparing apples and oranges...

mailforkev

I bought an EV because they're much nicer to daily drive and generally nippy and quite well equipped. I didn't spend anything extra for an EV, I just bought a car I liked at a price point that I could afford. The major cost savings have just been an extra benefit.

I'm also on the magic 7.9c unit rate until September, so the first government electricity credit covered my entire 2022 driving with a few quid left over to put towards my €120 motor tax and the €145 I had to pay for a "service". Insurance also dropped by €80.

Expecting my unit rate to double in a few months but even then, I'll still be quids in at around €3 per 100kms.

Jonathan2712

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527566#Comment_120527566

I buy electricity between 2am and 5 am at 11c per unit. I get 4 miles per KWH, so 2.75c per mile.

My wife's car gets 30 MPG @E1.56 per liter (paid this on Sunday in Drogheda). So, 22.8c per mile. (1.56*4.4)/30. So even with the higher electricity prices, the electric car is close to 90% cheaper to run.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528546#Comment_120528546

Law of averages and what the majority have should be used here

Most electric cars do 15-20kWh/100km average 17kWh/100km

Most modern diesels will do 55-65mpg (4.5-5L/100km) average 4.75L/100km

Meaning 4.75L of fuel does the same as 17kWh of electricity, or 1 liter of fuel does the equivalent of about 3.6kWh

Most people are paying €1.60 for a liter of diesel, an equivalent of 44c/kWh while most people pay 49c per kWh or an equivalent of €1.76/L

So it's completely fair to say that for the majority the cost of fuel is higher at the moment in EVs.

However.... What is likely to happen when OPEC cut their output later this year and our electricity suppliers cut their prices later this year?

Also worth remembering that servicing is much cheaper, no timing belt, cam belt, fuel filter, exhaust or catalytic converter

innrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528599#Comment_120528599

Who pays 49c/kWh? For electricity at home? I pay 35c at Ionity and 50ish at Tesla SuC.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528599#Comment_120528599

49c per kwh, er wut?

Casati

I really dont get why cars powered by electricity are now still seen as totally different to cars powered by petrol, diesel or indeed hydrogen and why people get so passionate about one fuel source versus another. Its actually the cars themselves are of course very different to each other - i.e. in the same way a 2010 208 HDI is powered by the same fuel as a 2023 Land Rover Discovery 3.0D its hard to find anything else similar about them. Equally I can't understand how somebody talks about a Tacan in one breath and then an MG4 in the other - yippie they are both powered by electricity but again its hard to find anything else remotely similar about them imo.

Saying you have a massive solar array or that you are on a legacy electricity rate 70% below the current cheapest isnt helpful for somebody looking for advice on what to buy unless they are in the very unlikely situation to have that benefit too. Its like saying you should buy diesel because I know somebody for whom it costs nothing - his employer has a large fleet of vans and lets him fill up from the work pump for free - nice for him but irrelevant for most people.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528665#Comment_120528665

Current cheapest night rate is less than 14c (and falling to be honest)

Jonathan2712

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528599#Comment_120528599

As others have said 49c isn't realistic. Also, my local petrol station doesn't reduce the price of diesel at off peak times, whereas my electricity provider does. I pay 36c day time, 22c night rate and 11c EV rate (2am - 5am). So long as you set the charger to charge at the right time, and almost everyone will do that - then you should buy most of the electricity for your car at a much much lower price.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528599#Comment_120528599

What!!!

Most diesel cars will not do 55-65mpg daily. I have proof of that sitting in the garden now. 520d sitting at 26mpg. It will do 50 on a motorway run though.

49c a kwh too. Who in their right mind is paying that?

cgorzy

Night rate will not suit everyone, more than the car needs to be considered in that decision unless already using a night rate anyway. Low car usage and required existing high daytime electric usage can mean staying with a 24hr rate works out best. Unless there is a way to even out charging for everyone to a combined lower rate, highly unlikely, then there will be people paying the same to drive 5K as someone else to drive 15K.

LasersGoPewPew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527959#Comment_120527959

How on earth are you paying 7.9c per kwh? The cheapest night rate on the market at the moment is about 21.5c per kWh.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528849#Comment_120528849

Energia had an EV plan up until a month or 2 ago. It was well posted on here advising any EV owner to grab it while still available.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528849#Comment_120528849

That's what a very large group of EV owners in the country are paying right now. Possibly even the majority. But even if you just compare a mid size 50MPG diesel at €1.60 to a mid size EV doing 17kWh at the currently best rate available of 11c for EV slot night rate and take into account 10% charging losses, the EV is still 75-80% cheaper than diesel per km

No matter what way anyone is trying to twist this, EVs are cheaper to fuel. Even if you had a 100MPG diesel, the EV would cost only half to fuel

Obviously this applies to an EV owner who charges mostly at home or free at work (as the overwhelming majority of EV owners do). If you charge your EV at fast chargers only, there isn't much in it either way. Depending on the charger and the rates, they might even be more expensive than diesel

3d4life

Anyone prefer for this drivel thread to be moved to After Hours ?

eagerv

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528849#Comment_120528849

I got in at 8.2c incl VAT last Sept. Also locked in for a year.

Was well advertised here and elsewhere, there was only one way electricity prices were going..

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528730#Comment_120528730

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528635#Comment_120528635

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528639#Comment_120528639

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528726#Comment_120528726

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/revealed-how-irish-households-are-being-charged-the-highest-prices-in-europe-for-electricity/a643287541.html

The survey found residential electricity prices, including taxes, varied from 9.2c per kilowatt hour in Hungary to 49.9c in Ireland. The EU average was 28.3c.​

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528953#Comment_120528953

Those reports are always flawed. They seem to take the standard rate of the main incumbent utility company (formerly state monopoly) without any deductions. The people that pay 49c on a 24/7 rate and never shop around deserve no sympathy.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528962#Comment_120528962

Agreed. I pulled the figure quite lazilly in fairness. I think my own rate is 41c/unit although when it comes to my car I charge it at 0c

eagerv

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528962#Comment_120528962

I actually know people paying that rate, they wouldn't dream of shopping around.

The same as the people who pay huge prices per month for their rarely used mobiles, never thinking of going on a payg €15/month or whatever.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528923#Comment_120528923

I got it without having an EV. 🙂

Pekarirska

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527557#Comment_120527557

Your Cuban premise needs to be corrected.

Cubans drive old cars because they're not allowed to import cars privately. Too many engines ended up propelling rafts in direction of Miami, so Fidel banned all private ICE imports.

Cubans simply can't buy any car with an average $10 weekly wage and the car ownership stands at 2%. That's not a matter of choice, it's a complete absence of it.

Almost a quarter of a million Cubans (out of let's say 10 million) emigrated to the US in 2022 alone to put the country's economic misery into perspective.

ICEs are facing death and it's fast: there are more electric motorcycles in Cuba than ICEs today. And they are all Chinese.

Only Russia, Iran, UAE, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait can produce oil below $20 with profit, the rest of the world can't. But the price must be much higher to balance petrostate's budgets, and that's the important bit.

DownByTheGarden

I am on 9c a kwh between 2 and 5am. To get that though I have to pay about 40c per kwh for any other time and even higher for dinner time electricity. But I have solar panels and a battery so not so bad for me as i can avoid using electricity at the peak times.

But to say that everyone can have 9c per kwh without a penalty for the other hours going forward is just nonsense.

Our EV is great for most of our driving, but we have a diesel for when the EV doesnt suit.

We find a combination of EV and diesel and solar gives the best setup for both cost, time spent driving, and convenience.

When we were without the diesel for a few weeks last summer when some idiot all but wrote it off we found that we spend more time waiting on chargers to be free, more time in motorway service stations and more time going out of our way to charge the car when on long journeys and on our holidays, when we couldnt just take the diesel, and that was before the charger prices went into orbit. If you put a price on your time then you see how inconvenient it can be.

The EV is great, when you have all the infrastructure around it. Like if you never have to charge publicly, or if you can offset the expensive hours home electricity that you need to use for anything else, in order to get the cheap rate for the EV during certain hours.

eusap

Buying an EV is a bit like saying i will buy a Pub so i can have cheap pints, yes you will get Cheap Pints (cost per km) but you had to buy a pub (Capital cost of car, solar panels, chargers) to get your cheap pint. But at least you can get to sit at the bar and tell everybody you have a cheap pint.

Until the capital costs come done it absolutely makes no sense to buy an EV, especially for a family.

I am not anti EV, i have often came close to pushing the Order now button on a Tesla but my Return on Investment brain says No

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120530686#Comment_120530686

LOL. Thats an excellent comparison :)

You can sit at the bar then telling everyone else who bought a bar and isnt living the dream that its just that they didnt buy the bar that suited their needs and how you never have any issues with yours and that your electricity is cheaper and that you only drink the pints between 2 and 5am and you have never had to go on hold when ordering new kegs.

Excellent :)

MojoMaker

Even if an EV was more expensive to run, right up to significantly more expensive to run, I would still choose to own and drive one over an ICE now. Having made the move there is no looking back.

When did EV buying become a commodity exercise where you end up comparing energy ratings of household appliances?

eusap

and just in case anybody is wondering I did do the maths, i assumed all at home charging and didn't include capital cost of solar etc... and even assumed a low cost of electricity. Until the capital cost of EV cars drops it makes no sense. Its at years 6 that the pendulum swings the other way

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120530686#Comment_120530686

But you’re not the person being targeted to buy an EV. It’s only if you are buying a new car either way. Then consider the fuel source. Petrol, diesel or electric. Whatever suits you.

Nobody, absolutely nobody will tell you to drop everything to go buy a new EV just to save running costs. ROI on any car purchased will be lost as the value is constantly devaluing so you’ll never get the ROI. Can’t think of it like that. You’d never buy a car at all.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120530844#Comment_120530844

Your maths is slightly flawed as the model 3 is €40,388 to purchase. So there’s €3k straight away in favour of the EV.