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I resent spending money on cars, why isn't there an EV for me

  • 27-04-2023 2:28pm
    #1
    Administrators Posts: 342 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭


    This discussion was created from comments split from: I need to buy a new car.


«134567

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭Stevie2001


    Yeah the war killed the EV cost savings

    You just have the hassle of owning an EV now without the financial benefit, but EU have that covered with ICE ban



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,376 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    I'd love to see the math that justifies that statement

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,935 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    Can't blame Putin for everything, other EU countries don't have the same problem, I'd be looking at Government policy.

    ICE is far from dead, we could end up like Cuba and people deciding to nurse on their cars rather than buy something they don't want in 2030. Oil producers can drop to $20 a barrel and make a good profit.



  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭Stevie2001


    Electricity prices have went through the roof

    That math good enough for you?



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,763 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    so did petrol prices.

    electricity still significantly cheaper to run.

    Have you actually done the math or what?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,376 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    Math normally contains things like numbers and equations, so no, not good enough for me

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,763 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    Alternatively.....

    1) EV technology will continue to evolve up to 2030 and beyond - both cars and infrastructure.....

    So people for whome EVs don't work in 2023 will likely be driving them in 2032 happily enough.

    2) worth noting that very few people in Ireland have experienced the very best of EV technology both cars and charging infrastructure in *2023*.

    So no 400 mile Lucid Airs?????.

    No 18 minutes to 80 percent on a 300 kW charger in a Taycan....

    No driving to Rome in a Tesla with the car guiding you to superchargers along the way - with 50 percent added to the battery in 12 to 15 mins on V3 Supercharger.

    No Nio battery swops in 5 mins....

    Those are things happening in the wider EV world *today*.

    By the time 2030 comes along I expect.....

    1) cost of energy to be resolved for nothing to do with EV reasons.... Cost of electricity won't be fixed to help a Tesla driver. It will however be fixed to help 85 year old Mike who lives on an old age pension.... And Mary who employs 200 people in her family business.

    2) a realisation that energy crisis probably needs more efficient use of energy. So EVs get rewarded over eFuels or hydrogen in that scenario. (Need to minimise use of current fossil fuels.

    3) I think that Vehicle to grid should be here by 2035....

    4) no one has yet come up with the costs of keeping older cars on the roads indefinitely as simply A to B transport. Everyone measures 40 mins at a charge point.....

    No one measures the days of work needed to refurb an old ICE car just to get out of driving an EV.....

    People talk of 10,000 to replace an EV battery....

    But you'd quickly hit 10 k if commiting to an old car indefinitely.....

    My guess.....

    Current hardcore pro keeping old cars on the road normal drivers will decide that they can live with EVs after all.

    Especially as the benchmark in 2035 isn't going to be a 40 kwh Nissan Leaf and 45 mins at a 50 kW charger in a wet and dark yard in Carlow....

    It will be....

    "Added 100 miles in 8 mins at a purpose built charging hub fully lit with excellent facilities. Had a coffee - came out and we had 170 miles added because the car was ready before we were"



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,763 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    But "I can't afford a Lucid or a Taycan"

    The post I quoted referenced 2030.....

    The ban is 2035....

    Historically new innovativation in cars always started in expensive high end vehicles.

    Based on previous history in terms of cars - I think its reasonable to expect Lucid or Taycan capability in range or charging.

    To start coming down to cheaper cars by 2030.....



  • Registered Users Posts: 64,317 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    No. And it looks you base your entire argument on maths you haven't even done? Not even "man math"?

    Here's a quick one for you. I pay 7.9c per kWh night rate incl. VAT. I also have a large solar PV setup so I charge my car in summer from the sun, but I will disregard that

    My large luxury EV uses about 20kWh per 100km, so costs about 20kWh * 8.5c (including charging losses) => €0.017 per km

    If I had a similar large luxury petrol car, it would use about 11l per 100km or €1.56*11l => €0.17 per km

    Petrol car costs 10 times as much as EV to fuel!



  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭Stevie2001


    You have some magic rate, as I was on bonkers and cheapest night rate I can find is 20c night, 40c day rate

    Can you link me to that 7.9c rate, I'll sign up now :)

    Oh so not alone I have to get a magic unit price, I need to spend thousands on solar panels too? Spend thousands for a ROI of a few years, alot of hoops to save a few euro a week on fuel costs

    I drive a Kona, it cost me 21k brand new 4 years ago, can you find me an EV that costs 21k brand new and has a range of 800km?

    I do 15,000km a year and night rate costs 20c a unit, so at 20kWh/100km would cost me €4 per 100km, the petrol kona I have does 5l per 100k, at 1.60 petrol, it would cost me €8 per 100km. So i'd save €600 a year or €12 a week on fuel if I had an EV, probably less as I do a few long journeys too where I will be paying €40 on rapid chargers to do 250km

    Kona EV costs €42,000 brand new, so I'd have to spend probably €27,000 to change my Kona to that and to save that €12 a week

    Where do I signup?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭Stevie2001


    What can I buy brand new for 21k that will get me around the country? That's what I paid for my current car

    My sister bought a brand i20 for 18k 2 years ago, what brand new EV can she replace that with?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,786 ✭✭✭DownByTheGarden


    I reckon my EVs have saved me €15k in fuel over the past 10 years.

    I was trying to explain that to a neighbor who is about to drop €50k on an EV and they probably only drive about 5000km per year. She is giving her 2019 1l Kona with 22000 kms on it to her daughter. She thinks she is going to save 20k a year in fuel :)

    Cant stress enough that you buy the car for your needs. Be it petrol, diesel, EV. Buy the one that is matched to both your needs and your pocket.



  • Registered Users Posts: 925 ✭✭✭sh81722


    At the low end, driving below national average miles, it's very hard to save money driving an EV. However, if you do lots of miles (think of 300 km a day at home charging) a Tesla Model 3 at 40k suddenly sounds like a really good idea compared to just about any other car in the class, as both the purchase price and cost of running are lower.



  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭Stevie2001


    Exactly, spend 50k to save a few euro a week on fuel, the Irish lol, like everyone buying diesels for the cheap tax in 2008

    Yeah you can save alright if you do a crazy amount of driving, have solar, got a good night rate before Ukraine took off etc, the time to buy an EV was 2017 or so when Ioniq came out, that was available for 22k brand new with 200km range then, now you must pay 42k for a Hyundai to get 400km, progress lol

    If EV tech was so good, we would have a Fabia equivalent available for 20k, but we must spend 30k+ to buy anything now :)



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,763 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    Currently 18 to 20 k EVs are typically 2nd hand Zoes, Leafs and original Ioniqs.....

    However an MG4 is 27 k new - point been that we can expect over the coming years for EV prices to become cheaper when you account for inflation.

    Trying to guess 2030 outcomes based on 2023 limitations is tricky.

    Manufacturers like VW are aiming to deliver smaller cars.

    Like this for 2025.....

    Bear in mind inflation also would rise the i20s price by then.

    https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/volkswagen-id-2all-concept-previews-sub-%C2%A322k-electric-car-2026



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,786 ✭✭✭DownByTheGarden


    Who gave the very biased title to this thread ?

    See this is the problem. EVs are like a religion. I think im the only sane EV driver left who can actually objectively talk about the good and the not so good things about them.

    Just over 10 years ago I think i only knew myself and 3 other personally who had a n EV. They could be got very cheaply then if you did it right.

    Since then I know a hell of a lot of people with them now., Its almost like they have joined a religion and cannot speak honestly about them then. Ive see a few people spend hundreds of thousands of euro on EVs and still think they are saving money. Its getting out of hand really.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,653 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Mod Note: @Stevie2001 instead of taking down every thread with your affordability issues, keep the discussion to one place. We all know that EV producers are not yet targeting the economy market it doesn't need to be brought up everywhere.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,653 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    I find most EV drivers can objectively talk about the pro's and cons. We do however have a set of people who would never dream of purchasing a new car and then complain that people who are in a position to spend money on new cars are buying them. It's the same tired arguments that are very little value.



  • Registered Users Posts: 64,317 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    At least you're coming up with some math now 😘

    Of course an EV is not cheaper for everyone. An old biddy happy with doing 500km per year going to church in her 1993 Toyota Starlet 1.0l, is better off just keeping that car. Better for the planet too. But for someone buying a brand new family size car, it really is a no brainer now based on total cost of ownership alone. If you don't believe it, do some sums for yourself. Say VW Tiguan diesel vs VW ID.4 electric doing 20k km per year



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Not only is the 8c per kWh completely unrealistic, the fuel economy stated for the ICE is ridiculously under-estimated. 11L per 100km translates to about 21mpg. I drive a 2L Dieseal that weighs two tonnes. It is regularly over 30mpg, which is only 8L per 100km, or a 25% reduction, and that's on regular roads. Motorway is almost always 40+.

    My personal record is about 55mpg when driving to Kerry.

    Nobody's denying it's cheaper to run an EV but you don't need to start lying to pad the stats.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 16 cgorzy


    New to looking at this stuff as I am now in the hunt for a new car and must say as a low mileage user I found the maths for an ev quite disappointing. At less thank 5K km per year and it not making sense to move to night rate I am working out I would do well to save €400 a year on fuel eaten into in year 1/2 by charger install. Haven’t found upkeep costs enough in the past to make a big dent either but then I am an €80 a tyre person and change ever 10 years so not worried about depreciation so a lot of it is personal. That is only the financials there are lots of other considerations, including what car do I like, what spec would I want etc etc. if it’s between 2 cars the same price that I like equally it’s a no brainer but it never is! Anyway the misconception that a an Ev has to save a fortune was all my own.



  • Registered Users Posts: 64,317 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Not lying dude. I compared my own car, a Tesla Model S, to a similar large performance petrol car, like a BMW 745i or Mercedes S500. If anything I have been conservative about petrol use. When I owned those type of cars in the past, I didn't even manage to average 20MPG

    Obviously a brand new frugal diesel small or medium size car will easily do 50MPG average. But that is comparing apples and oranges...



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭mailforkev


    I bought an EV because they're much nicer to daily drive and generally nippy and quite well equipped. I didn't spend anything extra for an EV, I just bought a car I liked at a price point that I could afford. The major cost savings have just been an extra benefit.

    I'm also on the magic 7.9c unit rate until September, so the first government electricity credit covered my entire 2022 driving with a few quid left over to put towards my €120 motor tax and the €145 I had to pay for a "service". Insurance also dropped by €80.

    Expecting my unit rate to double in a few months but even then, I'll still be quids in at around €3 per 100kms.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18 Jonathan2712


    I buy electricity between 2am and 5 am at 11c per unit. I get 4 miles per KWH, so 2.75c per mile.

    My wife's car gets 30 MPG @E1.56 per liter (paid this on Sunday in Drogheda). So, 22.8c per mile. (1.56*4.4)/30. So even with the higher electricity prices, the electric car is close to 90% cheaper to run.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,867 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Law of averages and what the majority have should be used here

    Most electric cars do 15-20kWh/100km average 17kWh/100km

    Most modern diesels will do 55-65mpg (4.5-5L/100km) average 4.75L/100km

    Meaning 4.75L of fuel does the same as 17kWh of electricity, or 1 liter of fuel does the equivalent of about 3.6kWh

    Most people are paying €1.60 for a liter of diesel, an equivalent of 44c/kWh while most people pay 49c per kWh or an equivalent of €1.76/L

    So it's completely fair to say that for the majority the cost of fuel is higher at the moment in EVs.

    However.... What is likely to happen when OPEC cut their output later this year and our electricity suppliers cut their prices later this year?

    Also worth remembering that servicing is much cheaper, no timing belt, cam belt, fuel filter, exhaust or catalytic converter



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,036 ✭✭✭innrain


    Who pays 49c/kWh? For electricity at home? I pay 35c at Ionity and 50ish at Tesla SuC.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,420 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,934 ✭✭✭Casati


    I really dont get why cars powered by electricity are now still seen as totally different to cars powered by petrol, diesel or indeed hydrogen and why people get so passionate about one fuel source versus another. Its actually the cars themselves are of course very different to each other - i.e. in the same way a 2010 208 HDI is powered by the same fuel as a 2023 Land Rover Discovery 3.0D its hard to find anything else similar about them. Equally I can't understand how somebody talks about a Tacan in one breath and then an MG4 in the other - yippie they are both powered by electricity but again its hard to find anything else remotely similar about them imo.

    Saying you have a massive solar array or that you are on a legacy electricity rate 70% below the current cheapest isnt helpful for somebody looking for advice on what to buy unless they are in the very unlikely situation to have that benefit too. Its like saying you should buy diesel because I know somebody for whom it costs nothing - his employer has a large fleet of vans and lets him fill up from the work pump for free - nice for him but irrelevant for most people.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,420 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Current cheapest night rate is less than 14c (and falling to be honest)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 18 Jonathan2712


    As others have said 49c isn't realistic. Also, my local petrol station doesn't reduce the price of diesel at off peak times, whereas my electricity provider does. I pay 36c day time, 22c night rate and 11c EV rate (2am - 5am). So long as you set the charger to charge at the right time, and almost everyone will do that - then you should buy most of the electricity for your car at a much much lower price.



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