Why I'll say no to a united ireland

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122121838#Comment_122121838

I am British and northern Irish. Simple

downcow

Do Canadians refer to themselves as Americans? I honestly don’t know, but I doubt it

just decide to google it before posting and here is unedited answer

“The term “Americans” typically refers to citizens of the United States. However, Canadians are also considered North Americans due to their residence on the North American continent12. It’s important to note that Canadians generally do not refer to themselves as “Americans,” which is a term more commonly associated with U.S. citizens2. Canada is a separate country with its own distinct culture and identity”

Can you get your head around that? Very like the ni situation

downcow

It is not a slur.
if I told you that you were British and you said you were not, that is not a slur.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122121935#Comment_122121935

I think it would have been much simpler had one country that shares this island, not called its self the same name as the island. That the confusion.

downcow

If the mull of kintyre had been a little bit longer and actually touched Ireland, would you then say the whole thing was Briton?

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122122548#Comment_122122548

No i'd say the whole thing was Ireland :D

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122122520#Comment_122122520

Its more like does someone from Ontario say they are Canadian but but not from Ontario. That is impossible.

You cannot be Northern Irish and not be Irish. It doesn't matter about who you vote for, what flag is flying outside your house, what religion you are or what politicians have power over you. I am not being romantic, as you asked in an earlier posts, I am well aware of the awful history on this island and am not glossing over anything.

Ireland was unified under Britain, as you said. The people from here were Irish, and a part of Britain, same as Scottish, Welsh and English. That was the union right?

Irishness didn't start when ROI became independent, it was always there, to say that would be nonsense. And similarly you also didn't stop being Irish when ROI became independent.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122122538#Comment_122122538

Have it in one. Me saying you are Irish does not mean you are ROI, or Gaelic, or not British, I have never said that, or tried to claim NI as I have heard innumerable times. I realize my position isn't popular with extreme or even moderate people on both sides, and it not meant as a slur and it makes me cross that it would be. From what I can see it is the position that is consistent with the shared island where we live, all the people who have lived here, and the history of Ireland both in Britain and out.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122122526#Comment_122122526

nobody is ‘telling’ you anything. You wanna believe babies in Castlewellan are born ‘British’ you knock yourself out.

What I am telling you is that I think you are as Irish as I am.

Put us side by side and most English people will call both of us Irish too.

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122121812#Comment_122121812

It takes a certain level of pettiness to intentionally mis-spell his name. What ever you need to get through the day.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122122526#Comment_122122526

For the record, you have absolutely snidely insisted that I'm British by birth Downcow (despite my repeatedly taking your side on this debate point).

If I recall correctly, you tried to point to the DeSouza case to insist we were all British by default despite my having never lived in Britain.

Perhaps you should consider this when getting offended that some folk think you're Irish because you've spent your entire life living in..…Ireland.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122122639#Comment_122122639

this is a fairly incredible post of yours. First of all your mask slips when you are not recognising that Canada is part of the island of America, yet you want to argue that because Northern Ireland is part of the island of Ireland, we must take on the label of the island. It is exactly the same logic calling those living in Canada, American, as calling those living in Northern Ireland, Irish.
i’m no doubt some are comfortable with that level and some are not – same here,

Can you not see the simple logic?

The most incredible bit of your post is to say that ‘Irishness’ was always there 😂. You are starting to sound like another regular poster on this thread, who always starts the clock at the point at which it supports his argument 😂

downcow

Exactly the same argument as if I said everybody on these two islands are British because it was the British Isles. I wouldn’t be so bigoted to suggest such a thing. Or that all those living in Canada and Mexico are American.

downcow

Of course, there are arrogant offensive supremacists all around. There is absolutely nothing to stop an American saying that the first nation people are Americans or a Spaniard telling Catalonians they are Spanish? (And then adding further insult by saying “You think you are First Nation or Catalonian, Knock yourself out”). Most sane people would distance themselves from such claims

downcow

Tell me honestly, would you be so insistent to a Catalonian that you believe they are Spanish?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122122743#Comment_122122743

This is the problem with some prejudice on here. They are nitpicking over every tiny thing a unionist says. Their hatred of unionists and unionism is evident.
I am speaking to my phone and it is typing – so you can blame Apple for the pettiness and me for the carelessness of not noticing.
you really do need to take a serious look at your prejudice

downcow

Point taken.
Just to be clear, I do not regard Irish people living in the six counties as British. I fully respect their Irishness, and I do not believe it is a technical thing that they claim when they get a passport. In my view they are Irish and they have no need to be British. I completely recognise that for some it would be offensive to refer to them as British or say that you are British because you are born in the UK.

I reacted to people continually talking nonsense that I am Irish, and I did respond with a technical fact. Not an appropriate argument and only intended for those on here who are so uncomfortable in their skin that they need to keep telling me I am Irish.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122123179#Comment_122123179

Think about the below for me.

Was Ireland unified under Britain, as you have said?

Was Britain a Union of English, Irish, Scots and Welsh peoples?

That is exactly what it was, right? Under a unified Ireland in Britain, why would there be a concept of a separate Northern Ireland. If there was, it would not have been unified. The people here were all Irish, within the Union. Your great grandparents, ancestors here etc were Irish, in Britain. Do you genuinely deny this?

When ROI got independence and "broke away", as you put it, that was not the start of being Irish, the people here were all Irish within the Union and before, but a certain section left the Union. ROI independence could not stop you being Irish, afterall you stayed consistent right?

Many that broke away tried to own what being Irish was, i.e Catholic , Gaelic etc etc. that was exclusionary republicanism. They tried to own what being Irish is, and denied it to everyone who was different. But they don't get to decide what is Irish, being of this island does. Irishness has been a thousand different things for thousands of years with diverse waves of people making it up.

But it seems you guys, with your identity, accepted and bought the propaganda, and either allowed exclusionary republicans to take being Irish from you, or decided to drop being Irish out of dislike for Irish people who were not Unionist, much like the Scots who refuse to be British? I dont know.

downcow

a point of note is that I came onto this forum to find out something about a sick calf. I was immediately shocked at the level of ignorance, prejudice, bigotry, and misunderstanding of my community. 11,186 posts later, of which about 11,183 have had nothing to do with farming, I am still here.
Educating the masses 😂

I must look back sometime and see who it was that first goaded me, encouraging me to stay around - I think I can guess without looking 🤣

Someday I will write a summary of your lessons so far, for you revision 😀

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122123179#Comment_122123179

The most incredible bit of your post is to say that ‘Irishness’ was always there 😂. You are starting to sound like another regular poster on this thread, who always starts the clock at the point at which it supports his argument 😂

Well for as long as there has been people living in the island of ireland. It has gone by many names.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122123187#Comment_122123187

It was your masters who named it the 'BI's.
That is the work of colonists, it's what they do and it is why a lot of what they do is undone.

the British Isles is not used officially anymore.

Those who regret the loss and end of Empire love it though. Look at yourself, blanch and Francis's use of it.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122123242#Comment_122123242

Tell me where I am going wrong, you said yourself Ireland was unified in Britain, and Britain was a Union of English Irish Scottish and Welsh. How did some people leaving stopped you being Irish?

Was Paisley a bigot to recognize his Irishness? Or Carson etc etc? But you say I am bigoted to agree with them, it makes no sense.

I have never disputed your nationality or idendity, am not claiming NI, and I still don't understand how calling somebody living in Ireland, who has been here for generations, whose ancestors here have all been Irish (as I have pointes out), Irish is a slur. Unless the extremists really did win out

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122123187#Comment_122123187

This is undoubtedly the British isles. But the Irish sea separates us from Britain does it not?

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122123195#Comment_122123195

You keep on picking opposite scenarios

If you are born in Catalunia, being Catalan cannot be denied. If you are born in Ireland being Irish cannot be denied. Ireland has been its own island for millenia sometimes ruled by Britain, as Catalunia has been its own entity, sometimes ruled by Spain. Someone from there can be Spanish (or not), but they cannot not be from Catalunia. I am not talking about national borders, but Geography.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122122538#Comment_122122538

Nail on the head. Ireland is the name od the geographical island of Ireland. Then the republic of Ireland government come along and call the 26 counties / free state / Eire / whatever you want to call it "Ireland".

I can understand why many in N. Ireland do not want to identify with the political state that is Ireland. In the past some republicans did not even look on Unionists / protestants as Irish, instead calling them west brits, planters and other insulting names. I remember someone on the Late late show telling Gay Byrne anyone who is not catholic is not really Irish, and the debate that caused, as some Republicans agreed with her.

People from the Isle of Man or Jersey, if asked their nationality, would call themselves "British". It is appropriate that those born in N.Ireland, which is part of the UK, can also call themselves British.

Decades ago, during the troubles, I remember when I visited Australia someone there asked me was I in the IRA. That is how the IRA has dirtied the name "Ireland", because back then many people around the world thought of IRA violence when they heard the world "Ireland". I remember a group of Australians proudly telling me they were "all" British originally. I told them there were a good few Irish too. Of course it is more multi-racial now.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122123366#Comment_122123366

Nail on the head. Ireland is the name od the geographical island of Ireland. Then the republic of Ireland government come along and call the 26 counties / free state / Eire / whatever you want to call it "Ireland".

It was also Ireland under Britain, and the people of Ireland were Irish, and I am saying that is just as they are now. I am being absolutely consistent with history of Ireland whether British or not.

 In the past some republicans did not even look on Unionists / protestants as Irish, instead calling them west brits, planters and other insulting names. I remember someone on the Late late show telling Gay Byrne anyone who is not catholic is not really Irish, and the debate that caused, as some Republicans agreed with her.

Absolutely, saying that is prejudiced and I totally disagree with it. Unionists are as Irish as I am, it has nothing to do with religion or ROI/NI. I agree those people spoke in a bigoted way, yet I am being bigoted by saying the opposite?

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122123366#Comment_122123366

Decades ago, during the troubles, I remember when I visited Australia someone there asked me was I in the IRA. That is how the IRA has dirtied the name "Ireland", because back then many people around the world thought of IRA violence when they heard the world "Ireland".

Good story I hope you corrected them that the Ireland is far far more than the Ira

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122123366#Comment_122123366

Now it is our fault that you would pay credence to idiots and the uninformed around the world.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122121579#Comment_122121579

This is what Paisley actually said: “I consider myself an Ulster or Northern Ireland unionist not an Irish Unionist. The same would be true of the vast majority of unionists in Northern Ireland. That is a significant change not just from one hundred years ago but even from fifty years ago… For many centuries, Ulster was a place apart in Ireland, but until more recent decades there was still a real sense of being Irish. I accept that there are some unionists in Northern Ireland who are still relaxed identifying themselves as ‘Irish’ though they are a minority… Whereas Carson would have regarded himself as Irish and British I believe that most unionists today regard their identity as being from Northern Ireland and British.”

“[My identity is] very eclectic [ including] things which I choose which are British and things which are Irish and things which I choose which are unique to Northern Ireland… [But it is a] British way of life… I don’t look to see what is happening in the Irish exchequer. I am interested in what is happening in the British budget … interested in English football teams, in television, such as British soap operas, all those things.”

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122123431#Comment_122123431

I certainly did, but I hope none of them would have heard (for example) of the Irish National Ladies soccer team chanting "uh Ah Up the 'RA" there after a match a year or two ago.