Why I'll say no to a united ireland

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189632#Comment_122189632

The Irish governments forces may not have carried out Omagh but nobody can deny there were different cases of collusion back during the troubles between Gardai and the pIRA, as proven in the Smithwick tribunal. You complain every day about "the British" investigating cases, but the case you brought up at the weekend was investigated, and the bullet that killed Aidan McAnespie was found to have ricocheted off the road, and the soldier did not kill A. Mc on purpose. The soldier was still sentenced to 3 years for carelessness / accidentally killing someone.

As noted already (but of course you ignored it) , the Irish government is still dragging its heels on investigating other cases of IRA collusion - for example in the case of Sproule, a young innocent Protestant from Co. Tyrone murdered because the Gardai gave the IRA information that he had loyalist para-military connections. The IRA killed him with something like 42 bullets, then phoned his father up and told him to have a look at the mess they left him in his yard. Later on the IRA showed the Garda file to a newspaper in Derry, as justification for their murder. He was not a para-military.

The collusion between the IRA and Gardai resulting in the murder of the innocent Protestant by the pIRA gang, with 42 bullets, on the farm in Co. Tyrone was not accidental.

There has not been a Garda investigation or enquiry, even though Irish politicians have met with Sproules relatives over the years and promised to have one. More white-washing / cover-up.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ulster/2024/0526/1451203-ian-sproule/

https://www.irishnews.com/news/northern-ireland/like-talking-to-a-wall-family-of-ira-victim-criticise-irish-state-over-response-to-gardai-collusion-claims-KUCA4ALYJZD27KF42YVMK5K3EU/

There is more evidence of whitewashing and cover-ups closer to home that in the other jurisdiction you keep harping on about.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188678#Comment_122188678

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189322#Comment_122189322

Not really - reads like more of a conspiracy theory. No doubt that McGuinness was IRA but a spy?? An informer? I very much doubt the latter? Quite plausible that the British military did not intercede and arrest him, as better the devil you know etc

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189731#Comment_122189731

I have absolutely no problem with criticising successive Irish governments,
They are however in the halfpenny place in terms of responsibility for the bigoted and sectarian one party government that was allowed to develop over 50 years in NI leading to it going up in the tragic flames it did.

That prime responsibility will always be with the British government.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189376#Comment_122189376

How would you describe what happened in Ballymurphy?

How would you describe how the British government handled, and are still handling, the aftermath?

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189979#Comment_122189979

Stop diverting yet again. By some metrics in the mid 20th century the government this side of the border was more sectarian than N.I., and the FF/G one party you are always complaining about had a veto here too (you complain FF/G swapped power and did not let anyone else govern ), and the government here was stricter at times on the IRA as it executed some IRA here in Irish prison in the forties. That was all a long time ago. Many people have forgotten.

Any chance you could answer some of the questions asked earlier. For example:

"Most people in these islands condemn the para-militaries during the troubles on both sides : the pIRA, the INLA etc on one side, and the loyalist paramilitaries like UVF, Shankhill butchers, etc on the other side.

You, FrancieBrady, have yet to condemn the Republican para-militaries. Like Adams, you are not in to the politics of condemnation (unless it is of the British or loyalists of course). You are against violence ( but you do not consider pIRA activity / attacks "violence" - they were military action etc according to you ).

Again I ask you: what do you think of the IRA coldly blowing up Mountbatten's boat when they could see a young innocent teenage boy and other civilians on it?  Still proud about that?"

droidman123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190034#Comment_122190034

Please link to where francie said he was proud of it,otherwise withdraw the remark

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189332#Comment_122189332

I gave examples in that very post - a long list of excuses that anyone who has the mental fortitude to read back through the thread will find in black and white.

If someone criticizes BA murders, you have consistently explained them away, tried to contextualize them (without adding any actual context), mocked the person saying it, or pivoted into a conversation about what the IRA did, as though the person criticizing a government for killing its own people has to be a violent republican headbanger who supports terrorism.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190034#Comment_122190034

All decent people condemn violence, especially that violence which is covered-up and lied about, form whomsoever commits it.

The violence and conflict brought to this island by an irresponsible colonial power and the sectarian bigoted government they allowed operate in NI are to be condemned as are all acts of violence from the beginning.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189960#Comment_122189960

The British had no problem "interceding and arresting" terrorists from both sides who were not informers though. That was their job, and they arrested and jailed thousands of people, from both sides.

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/mi5-protected-martin-mcguinness-for-years-says-thatchers-spy-within-sinn-fein-935226

He was not the only person in that spooky world to say McGuinness was an informer / British agent

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/podcasts/the-beltel/the-army-spook-who-exposed-stakeknife-and-accuses-martin-mcguinness/a710499912.html

We know McGuinness was secretly flown to London for talks with British officials and MI6 at Cheyne Walk, in London’s Chelsea, in 1972. The British had experience of honey traps from the Russians : it would be absurd to think they did not use these and other techniques in the battle against terrorism.

We also know McGuinness in the early seventies was convicted by our (Republic of Ireland's) Special Criminal Court, after being arrested near a car containing 250 pounds (110 kg) of explosives. How come northern authorities never jailed him, even after he was filmed loading the car that exploded hours later etc?

So all in all, I think many people keep a very open mind.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189376#Comment_122189376

I know about BM as my mother's family took in refugees fleeing south at the time so it always interested/horrified me.

Interestingly (to me anyway) they also took in a NI protestant family on another occasion, who were getting out of dodge (the father was in the OO which was rare down here). I found this odd as we were a Fianna fail family, which was the republican party back then, and are a couple hundred miles from the border. Never got to know how the contacts etc came about, but the stories came up from time to time.

Never heard of Aidan Mcinespie before this thread.

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189376#Comment_122189376

“violent British army regiment sent to a civilian neighborhood of British citizens, and given free reign to murder people going about their lives”, and numbers in the low teens died, is absurd.

Not as absurd as you would like us to believe unfortunately; The MRF were one such unit given free reign and carried out the very nature of these attacks and (quelle suprise) they were never held accountable.

But something tells me you will have a goal post move in motion….

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190204#Comment_122190204

These actions are echoed throughout their colonies.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190069#Comment_122190069

You still have not answered the question:  "what do you think of the IRA coldly blowing up Mountbatten's boat when they could see a young innocent teenage boy and other civilians on it?" Still proud about that?"

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190221#Comment_122190221

I have to ask, do you ask this question in an underhanded attempt to de-legitimize valid criticism, or have you genuinely seen FrancieBrady say he supports boats and innocent children being blown up?

If it's the former, it is a very lazy and distasteful way to debate, and shows an inability to defend your position on its own merits.

If it's the latter, that question is fair game.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190259#Comment_122190259

We get the same answer from the usual suspects that they condemn all violence.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190259#Comment_122190259

It's a familiar attempt to get the conversation to go down a rabbithole of selective condemnation and victim exploitation.

Don't worry, I won't be playing along.
If people cannot understand condemnation of 'all violence from the start' that is their issue.

droidman123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190221#Comment_122190221

And you still havnt sent me the link to where francie said he was proud of it

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190310#Comment_122190310

A lot of SF are proud of the pIRA and say there was no alternative, and many Republicans cheer and justify the attack on Mountbatten's boat. I am just wondering what you, being a SF supporter, think of that attack? As years have gone on, maybe you have changed your mind slightly?

Seeing as you wanted the rest of us to go down the your "rabbithole of selective condemnation and victim exploitation" re the person A Mc. killed by the ricochet off the road, and then you had to backtrack when you found it was accidental and the soldier still got a sentence.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190330#Comment_122190330

There won't be a link. The poster is again making things up.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190310#Comment_122190310

Seeing as you will not answer the question "what do you think of the IRA coldly blowing up Mountbatten's boat when they could see a young innocent teenage boy and other civilians on it?" I'll rephrase it for you.

Do you think the attack on Mountbattens boat was violence or was it a justifiable military action from the pIRA?

Do you condemn the attack on the boat or not?

It is interesting to see this causing you such a moral dilemma.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190546#Comment_122190546

What is your motivation for asking - has the poster ever expressed support for this, or is it relevant to anything they have said previously?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190412#Comment_122190412

The attempt to go down a rabbit-hole of selective condemnation is familiar all right, we have had attempts to single out Aidan McAnaspie and Bloody Sunday for selective condemnation in the last few days from the usual source of selective condemnation.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190736#Comment_122190736

I agree - it is selective to criticize a democracy for killing its own citizens and covering it up, and not mention republican and loyalist terrorists.

But the selection is made because a democracy should have some moral authority and responsibility to not behave like the terrorists. If members of their administration or army do, they should be forced to face justice. It is a disgrace there have been no prosecutions form BM or BS.

If murder or coverups occur, it can can be argued that said government does not hold the moral authority they think they do to hold terrorists to account.

Is it wrong criticize this behavior? Does doing so mean you automatically support terrorism, in your eyes?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190777#Comment_122190777

No, it is not wrong to criticise democracies when they make mistakes, but the occasional or exceptional mistake by a democracy still put them in a category of behaviour far above and far batter than that of a terrorist group whose every action is criminal.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190736#Comment_122190736

In the context of the discussion.

We were discussing the litany of lies, evasions and cover-ups by a state, not a paramilitary group.
State sponsored violence in other words.

There is no selective condemnation on my part because no other state was responsible for NI.

It's the excusers of state sponsored violence who want to select paramilitary crimes to deflect from that. It's a familiar tactic the world over.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190786#Comment_122190786

I see another state (who claim they don't and never sponsored violence) currently claiming they made a 'mistake' bombing civilians.

Funnily enough, those who have no issue with what the British did in this country vehemently support that state.

A pattern?

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188425#Comment_122188425

So I’ve heard rumoured. I don’t believe it though.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190786#Comment_122190786

Though it is certainly exceptional, I couldn't call a 50 year coverup, a thirty something year smear campaign, a sealing of documents for a further 50 years passed FOI dates, and changing your most basic laws to refuse to prosecute murderers a "mistake". It is anything but.

Do you think, that because the government changed their laws, that the soldiers who carried out Bloody Sunday and Ballymurphy, and those who covered it up, did not act criminally?

Your next point - I agree, the British Gov aren't on the level of terrorists, though I can see why some would see them as such given some of their behaviour.

Nor should they be treated as though they are terrorists - but in this case the ones I see treating them as such are those who say "leave them off, there were murders on all sides".

It just so happens the other sides were all terrorist groups, so saying this directly treats the British Army as comparable to terrorists.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189436#Comment_122189436

the only people covering up and telling lies were the shinners. They said it was murder, the British army said it was not. The judge prove Sinn Fein wrong

https://www.anphoblacht.com/contents/28151

downcow

While the Irish government cover up and refuse enquiries to sane their blushes