SCEP or Sceptical

Anto_Meath

They can increase but I have very rarely seen it, the only 1 I have that increased was 1 that was sired by a weanling calf belong to a neighbor. She was a nice quite CH heifer so I kept her for a cow. When I got her DNA'ed first she was a 1 star animal now she is a 3 star. What I see is most mine stated off 4 -5 star and have been dropping since.

Lime Tree Farm

We had a one star cow, calf every year and good weaning weights. She was rated minus €22 on replacement. She got an improved rating in her final year, minus €19

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120422633#Comment_120422633

ICBF are obsessed with fertility, if a cow isn’t calving every 365 days or close to it, stars suffer, 393 is pretty high, losing a month every year. I’m not saying it’s right but that how they look at things. Overall it’s a flawed system, ICBF were told to come up with a system and schemes to fook up Suckler farming and that’s what they’re doing.

Packrat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120422971#Comment_120422971

I'd say it's more a scheme which suits pedigree cattle more so than commercials.

Definitely continental biased.

bogman_bass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120422014#Comment_120422014

in that example you would only need 5 calved cows if you had 3 heifers that are 4 or 5 star. As there is a provision that 50% of your qualifying animals need to be calved cows

(that’s my reading of it anyways

charolais0153

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120422034#Comment_120422034

If they were 4 stars when they were genotyped They were eligible at the end of the scheeme

Grueller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120423154#Comment_120423154

Unless they left your herd then they became ineligible for the buyer

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120422971#Comment_120422971

It definitely is a flawed system. I joined last week and as I posted in the chic chat thread nearly all the feeder cull dairy cows that are in the herd are 5 star including pure Jersey and crossbred Jersey cows. It's a ridiculous system that promotes dairy beef over beef bred animals.

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120423154#Comment_120423154

New scheme yes, old scheme no

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120423386#Comment_120423386

That’s been mentioned here before, also a bias to PG/Munster bulls. Herdplus has done harm to beef production, but maybe that’s the intention

charolais0153

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120423437#Comment_120423437

Cows that were genotyped at start of scheme as 4 stars qualified. Even though they are 1 star now

dh1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120422971#Comment_120422971

Screenshot_20230331-151205_Chrome.jpg

Screenshot_20230331-152559_Chrome.jpg

Screenshot_20230331-152710_Chrome.jpg

I have given up trying to understand how they calculate star ratings for cows. It's a pile of nonsense if you ask me. I think its gimmick to sell more of c AI straws to be honest. Attached is a screenshot of one of my worst rated cows. One star since forever. 12 lactation, 16 calves, adg never below 1kg even with multiple sets of twins. And mainly heifer calves. Bulls hitting above 1.4 to 1.5kg. Extremely quiet, good for milk. Calving interval of exactly 365 over 12 lactations. She wouldn't breed my best calf but she would hold her own in the middle of the pack. You would think with that much data behind a cow she would be higher than 1 star. She is not my only example of abnormal star scoring. Some too high, some to low. Wouldn't instill confidence in the calculations/genomic testing

Seanhorse91

Same as that. Pedigree Limousin cow by sympa. Always bred well. 1 bull was reserve junior champion in roscrea and exported. 13 calves, and a calving interval of 352 days.

Replacement index of €51 then after all that

Base price

Interesting article on Agriland about weanling weights from starred cows -

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/are-five-star-cows-producing-higher-value-weanlings/

Sugarbowl

Have any of ye got a letter yet with your reference number? Or is it on agfood?

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120434459#Comment_120434459

It’s on Agfood, click on SCEP, the numbers for the six years and the reference number are there.

Anto_Meath

I signed up there a week or so ago and I now see on ICBF I have a "Pre SCEP Report" which has a "Listing of all beef females in your herd born on/before 30th June 2022 and their Replacement Index details".

Over 70% of the cattle on my list are currently 4 or 5 star and over 110% of my reference number. it would be interesting to see if the figures are the same at the end of the 5 years.

dh1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120434144#Comment_120434144

Interesting as in no definitive conclusion can be obtained to say the star rating is progressing beef progeny. Less than half of the 1000e weanlings are from 4 and 5 star herds and over half are from 1 to 3 star herds. Marginal difference at best. If the star rating was credible this differential should be significantly higher. Load of assumptions then from the icbf commentator about meal quantity fed and cow size with no data to back it up. Its no wonder there's still no increase in certainty around the star rating since 2015 if this is the level of data analysis the icbf are presenting. If a 12 year old presented that you would have to bite your tongue instead of laughing i out of the room. Another quango masquerading as intellects.

blue5000

I think you can’t really blame ICBF for all the flaws in the system. They can only go on the information that they are given by us. It’s so much easier for accurate dairy information with milk recording etc.

In beef it’s a lot harder to get accurate information, one of the ‘best’ farmers in our dg had dlwg of 1.7 all bulls killed u 16 months. Teagasc thought it was fantastic.

One of the other lads in the group does ai so he knew when the cows were served. Let’s just say the birthday was a bit off.

now the gestation period is ‘a bit off’

cow 365 calving is ‘a bit off’

weaning weight is a ‘bit off’

lifetime dlwg is ‘a bit off’

The only thing that is accurate is the CW and grade. Then people come on here and blame ICBF for bullshit stars.

dh1985

There is inaccuracies been input for sure. But these would be consistent across the entierity of data range and should balance out. All one needs to do is look inside there own herd and compare the stars across their cows and try comprehend why some cows are rated 1 star when they should be 4 or 5 and why some cows are 4 or 5 when they should be 1. Surely the guy that inputs incorrect birth dates is doing it for his 1 star cows as well as his 5 star cows.

charolais0153

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438453#Comment_120438453

Is the dairy cows ebi system any good And they have perfect records.

there was a thread a week ago saying fertility index a load of shite basically. Look at the top ebi bulls from a few years ago. Way down the list now.

Jim Simmental

Does anyone know how far Bord Bia go back during the inspection?

Have a bit of homework to do here in order to get the paperwork right for a Bord Bia inspection?

would the remedies completed say from January 2021 up to date be sufficient?

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438937#Comment_120438937

Six months i think, back to 2021 would be more than enough for sure.

Diarmuid B

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438937#Comment_120438937

They had a fella on the FJ podcast from bord bia and he said they only require paperwork for the previous 6 months

Silverdream

Was on the Dept Webinar there now, plenty question answered, they'll be putting it up on youtube in the next few days to watch.

what bothers me about the scheme is we are not being paid for training. Why is the Suckler farmer not entitled to get paid for training that is forced on them. Every public sector worker gets paid for there training days, but its a case of screw the Suckler farmer.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120441289#Comment_120441289

You are paid for the training. It’s part of the scheme which you sign up knowing you have to do it.

Would it better if they dropped the payment per cow by 10 euros and then said you get 158 quid for the days training.

Silverdream

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120441689#Comment_120441689

No payment for training.

Dept think its ok for themselves to be paid for training but not the farmer, sur he's getting paid for being in the scheme.

Its a sneaky trick they are pulling that just shows what they think of the suckler farmer

Lime Tree Farm

I'm more bothered about the futile extra paper work attached to it. I was hoping for an outcry against joining bb.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120441750#Comment_120441750

Can’t keep farmers happy 😃 . i have said it here a million times.

Noting sneaky about it.

On one side there is a column showing what you will be paid.

On the other side is all the hoops you gotta jump through including a training day.

Anto_Meath

I have no problem with having to do the training its part of the hoops for the scheme. I have no problem with having to be in Bord Bia, can't really get cattle into the factory to be slaughtered without it anyway. Its worth €60 - €80 on cattle killed.

But the star rating are the catch, they slide they showed even proved it, there was little or no difference between what was achieved for weanlins from 1 star or 5 star dams. Its a false system, if a cow is genotyped 5 star but then falls back over time to a 2 star she is still eligible once she stays in your herd but if you sell her she isn't eligible for the new owner. That just doesn't make any sense to me.

tanko

There’s two half day training courses, one about SCEP and one about animal handling, it would be a bit much if both can’t be done on the same day.

Skerries Steve

Watched the webinar, like a lot of people have said when the speaker from icbf mentioned that after all the data gathered over the previous years that 50% of the €1000 weanling come from 4 or 5 star cows, I couldn't believe what I was hearing meaning that the other 50% came from what all these experts consider the dregs of the suckler herd. You actually couldn't make it up.

Icbf in particular is making simple situations very complicated just to keep plenty work on there desks and justify their jobs while the suckler farmer fools around with stupid and aimless objectives just to draw down the grant which really cannot be done without in Suckler farming.

dh1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120444840#Comment_120444840

Think you have hit the nail on the head in the last paragraph. They haven't a clue. At this staged it's not even a flawed model but a failed model they are working too. The data doesn't back up their prediction for maximising genetic potential. A certain amount of outliers would be acceptable but there is no significant difference across the stars on calf quality after 8 years. I posted one instance above of my worst rated cow. Got a summary sheet from them today and started looking into my cows performance a bit more. Attached is a two star cow, small sample size of only 4 calves, but she is in my eyes is a top class breeder. Calf progeny details attached. My own bull, not AI. 365 calving interval. Fertile, quiet with milk. Her calf sold for alot more than 1k last October. I could pick another 2-3 cows that are similarly rated and equally as good. Then have 4-5 overrated at 4 and 5 stars that wouldn't breed as well. I only have a small number of cows so with the amount of anomalies I see within my own herd I couldn't put any creedence in their ratings.

Screenshot_20230405-194731_Chrome.jpg

trg

We're gonna be reducing numbers year on year. The 50% 4/5 star for eligible females won't be a major problem but it will as years go by and the ratio increases.

Does anyone know can you reset the reference no. annually or are you stuck with the no. you pick now?

I'm loathe to leave money behind but not keen on being tied to a higher no. of sucklers than I'd like as well as struggling with the stars.

Lime Tree Farm

You can't increase the number, but can reduce the numbers each individual year.

Lime Tree Farm

The applicant must then set their “yearly reference number”. The applicant can reduce the reference number by up to 20% of what the previous year’s reference number was including year 1 or where the applicant had set the yearly reference number below the programme reference number in Year 1, they can go back up to the programme reference number. In year 1 this will be set at application stage, from 2024 it must be set in January of each scheme year. Where a farmer does not want to reduce in a specific year or any year, s/he has to take no action in January.

Hard Knocks

Probably already asked, is it herd plus or agfood you find your reference number and how you stand currently

ABitofsense

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120495093#Comment_120495093

It's in Agfood where you apply. It shows your reference numbers and best years. You can set a number then based on what you want

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120495125#Comment_120495125

Thanks, assisting here (blind leading the blind). The ref is 70% of the current cow numbers. I gather all star criteria is against the ref number rather than the actual number.

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120495186#Comment_120495186

Yeah, if your programme reference no is 20 and you pick 20 as your 2023 reference no then you need to calve at least 10 cows, have 14 animals for genotyping and have at least 10 four/five star genotyped cows/heifers over 16 months in October. You could have 30 cows now but you only get paid on 20.

Jb1989

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120495286#Comment_120495286

Just to confirm, do you get paid for 20 cows (€150 plus each) even tho you may only calve 10?

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120495462#Comment_120495462

Yeah, I think so. You have to calve at least 50% of the reference no you put in each year afaik.

Jb1989

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120495496#Comment_120495496

Yea I think so too.

Stationmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120414678#Comment_120414678

Just a follow up on this as I went to the mart last week with 2 weanlings. Both wintered out and no meal.

First lad off a 4 star cow - nice weanling - 290 kg and made €890. Nothing special, price a little disappointing if anything.

The second lad was lighter and out of a 2 star cow. 270kg. Made €1,120. As good a weanling as you'd see any day even if I do say so myself!

So, I'm still torn between joining the scheme but having to replace half of the cows to his the star requirement or just concentrate on the cows that are returning the best weanlings irrespective of stars!! (or getting rid of them altogether which is what I was doing before I got the good price for the second lad cause I was having a **** week with them!!!).

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120495866#Comment_120495866

I don’t think it’s an all or nothing scheme. Some money could be held back if you miss a requirement but I don’t think they look to reclaim all the money from year 1-3 if you miss a requirement in year 4 as an example but they do hold back that percentage Of payment for that action and apply a penalty.

I am open to correction but see page 14 (if you can follow it).

https://assets.gov.ie/250454/07fff890-f963-4d26-9053-cae7770c61e7.pdf

tanko

That’s something my advisor emphasized. It’s not the end of the world with SCEP if you get a penalty or two and lose some money if you still get most of it, you would need to look at how the penalties are applied and see if the scheme still suits you. The penalties do get a bit more severe as the scheme progresses tho.

Stationmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120496625#Comment_120496625

Thanks for that - I hadn't clicked that. Going by it there'd be a 20% penalty if star numbers not achieved so that would still make it viable. I presume you wouldn't be allowed to keep going like that indefinitely but at least it might give you an extra year or two to replace. Thanks again.

hopeso

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120495866#Comment_120495866

I think what this highlights clearly is that anyone with a herd of good cows producing good weanlings would be mad to join. You'll get the value of the grant and more when you sell the good calf, and no hoops to jump through. Plus whatever value you put on looking at or working with quality stock.

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120505794#Comment_120505794

Listening to farmer the concerns are stars and BB as both can change and neither are at the control of the farmer. Teagasc seam to be bullying this through as well

charolais0153

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120505794#Comment_120505794

No reason why good cows can’t be 5 star