SCEP or Sceptical

Lime Tree Farm

Read the t&Cs today and did the calculation, comparing it with the combined bdgp and beep-s payment that it replaces.

Sugarbowl

And are you getting around the same payment? I think I am. But will have to genotype more animals so that expense will increase. Still think it’s too much to leave behind me.

893bet

It’s easy money for us who are 100 percent AI. Don’t really have to worry about the stars and everything else takes care of it self really.

ABitofsense

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384919#Comment_120384919

This is exactly what my advisor said to me today. I do nearly it all anyway so might as well get something for it. Only additional thing would be the bord BIA.

Micey.ie

I had a 4 star bull last year that had genotyped evaluation results out on the July proofs in 2022-wonder is he eligible?

says on t/c that calves have to be from a genotyped 4/5 star bull at time of service.-He would have served cows in May/June before the July Proofs we’re out.

Grueller

Still a small few sucklers here, hobby for the boss really, but I'm not going in because no way am I making another 5 Yr commitment to them.

freekerry

Small suckler with 12 or 13 cows. Not for me. Have to keep calves 5 months min, there's always a few late ones and don't want to keep them in winter months. Also, deduction for genotyping cost, training day cost, pay for the scales rental, penalty if sell calves under 5 months. Just not worth the hassle

Anto_Meath

I am going to apply as I was in BDGP & BEEP-S schemes already so doing the requirements of the scheme, only difference is the higher % of cows that are needed to the 4 & 5 star. I have some 1 star cows which I rate very highly, under this scheme there will be less space to carry these type of cows.

The requirement to genotype 70% per year will mean sampling bull calves / bullocks every year. You would think they could combine the Genotyping with the BVD sampling then all animals within the herd would be genotyped and it would save on costs.

@ €150 / cow we will be be down a few euro on the combined payment of the BDGP & BEEP-S schemes with more or less the same work so that is disappointing.

endainoz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120385801#Comment_120385801

Surely the training day won't cost you anything? Normally get paid for these type of things for lads that miss out on a days work.

endainoz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120386551#Comment_120386551

The 150 a cow is more of an average, it might vary a bit depending on the reference number.

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/higher-than-expected-payment-in-new-suckler-scheme-754911

The journal had a better way of explaining it. I'm down a bit from the genomics scheme and beeps but don't really have much of a choice but to apply for it. Have to try to replace the schemes that are ending, similar with ACRES and GLAS.

Anto_Meath

@endainoz that is just it, you have to try and make the best use of whatever payments you can get and try to work them to your advantage. The BEEP-S was really just money for jam and was very handy the only bit of additional work was the dung samples as I would be feeding some meal before weaning every year anyway.

blue5000

Got the text about it and will probably go for it, not sure yet how much it will be worth as we have cut cow numbers a good bit.

ABitofsense

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120385801#Comment_120385801

I didn't notice that 5 month criteria. That could catch a couple of lads out based on some of the age of weanlings you do see going through the mart in Oct & Nov.

Pity that they can't just use the sample when you tag for bvd & do 100% genotyping then. Save alot of hassle!!

endainoz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120387640#Comment_120387640

But then the poor labs and mullinahone won't make a few pound.

freekerry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120386594#Comment_120386594

Have to take a day off work and this time they are not paying for doing the course

endainoz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120387918#Comment_120387918

Ah yes your are correct, it say no payment in the terms and conditions.

Lime Tree Farm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120387610#Comment_120387610

lLogin into ICBF, under Services access the BDGP

Under the DAM tab, select years, between 2016 and 2021, to see cows calved for each individual year. Take you best 3 years and calc average.

This average is divided by 1.5 to obtain your maximum eligible Hectares.

the first 15 HA is @ €225 and the balance @ €180

That's my interpretation, anyone think differently?

endainoz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120391285#Comment_120391285

Nope, I think you have it right.

mr.stonewall

I think that entering this scheme will spell the end of stock bulls on farms. To make the necessary steps to increase the star rating of stock it will require either high starred cows,or a high high star rated bull. This will put serous cost on the system to meet the requirements of the scheme.

The only real cost effective way is to be selective ai and culling. For most suckler farmers the thought of ai is a killer, from the time perspective, facilities, farm fragmentation and part time work. The only real means to achieving it and not having penalties on the payment, is either buy a super high starred bull, sync all breeding stock or invest in heat detection technology

Rusheseverywhere

THe problem as I see it is that all the emphaise is on the replacment value of the cow. I have seen lots of AA and HEX off Fr or Ho cows that are 5 star and nearly 200 replacement but there progeny will not be as good as those of suckler bred cows; that as most of mine are 3 star. I see that they are bringing in CBV and surely same rational apply to dry stock lads you must have 5 star cattle as they are the most efficent greenest etc ie kill soonest at best weight. To produce those you need cows that are high terminal value and they are not going to be dairy cross cows.

All the cattle I have are 300 plus on CBV ie 5 star.

For me would have to get rid off all my cows to be in the scheme and even if I could do that think value of weanlings would make up for scheme. I hope so!

Sugarbowl

If you genotyped a number of this years calves now as they are small, would that cover you for the scheme? As in they would be already done say by the summer when they send out the tags. Always find it harder to be doing them then rather as calves when they would be inside anyway.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120386551#Comment_120386551

This scheme is only replacing bdgp though it includes elements from beeps.

there is a second scheme in works I think according to Agriland that replaces beeps

bogman_bass

With 30 cows it’s worth 4 1/2 grand. Don’t think I can afford to leave that behind me. Sickens me to have to get back into Bord Bia though.

tellmeabit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120393892#Comment_120393892

Same boat here with 14 as reference number. Can't see myself getting the stars on cows. Have few heifers that are 5 but am happy with the calves cows produce. Would teynand hit 5 star bulls alright

MeheeHohee

Anyone know if you have signed up to this can you now sell weanlings? If i've signed up, can I record weights and then sell, even though the scheme is't up on ICBF yet, I can just manually put in weights under weight recording?

Sugarbowl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394484#Comment_120394484

Would u have got money out of them from last years scheme? Weighed them in October or anything?

MeheeHohee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394518#Comment_120394518

No wouldn't have been in last scheme, they would be august /sept calves, generally weigh the autumn calves in the spring before weining / selling and get the beep payment

Anto_Meath

@893bet yes I read in the Journal yesterday evening that there is a beeps scheme coming in at €65 per cow. So over all up to €215 for the first 22 cows €4,730 before deductions, that would be nearly 4 extra weanlings so not to be sneezed at.

Katie 2018

Were can I check my star rating of my cows I wasn't in the last scheme bdgp

Lime Tree Farm

You have to be registered with ICBF to see the cow's star rating, using your herd number and username. There is an annual subscription.

Sugarbowl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394613#Comment_120394613

I would check with the higher orders before you sell them. Be gutted to have got rid of them and you hadn’t weighed them etc.

Rusheseverywhere

The problem is there is nowhere to input their weights. Scheme application closes last day of May and by sound of dates on terms and conditions gos live the 1st July also you need to input weights under the old scheme within 7 days of weighing them so hard see how manage it.

Sugarbowl

I’d email the department for advice on what to do if they were mine. If you sell them there’s no way back then

Dozer1

I weighed mine last week and inputted the weights in ICBF, same as I always have done I imagine this is what most will do. was able to book the scales etc as normal via the online system

bogman_bass

I imagine you can sell away because they were not born during the upcoming scheme

Rusheseverywhere

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120395602#Comment_120395602

Yeah but that is just weight recording. To record for the scheme was a different section and when you click on that it says "RECORDING FOR BEEP-S CLOSED AT 5:30PM ON 1ST NOVEMBER 2022" cut and paste job so in Caps.

Dunedin

Submitted application today….

zetor 4911

Anyone joining this scheme would what to read the terms and conditions particularly pages 14 to 18 on penalties. Very punitive penalties for breaches of scheme rules more so than the previous scheme. Tread with care.

Jack C

From Ts & Cs.

 "Applicants are required to ensure that by the 31st October 2023 at least 50% of their yearly reference number are eligible females that are genotyped 4 or 5 stars on the replacement index (on a within breed or on across breed basis) at the time of purchase (for replacements brought into the herd) or at the time of genotyping (for those replacements bred within the herd)."

Does that disqualify non genotyped animals bought in and then genotyped 4 or 5* ? Surely not.

Also what's deducted for cost of genotyping?

Rusheseverywhere

So if cattle go down in stars but were 4 star or 5 star when genotyped you are ok?

22 euros each on ICBF did it before privately, hair sample if you test privatley

freekerry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120398964#Comment_120398964

If u look at someone with 10 calves, and have to sell weanlings in Sept or oct. say 3 calves born late and can't meet the 5 month requirement. No payment of 20% or 300 euro for no compliance, plus 10% or 150 of a penalty. Plus 50 euro to rent a scales. Plus 250 euro to genotype. So your 1500 payment is down to 750, that's a small amount of money for all the work involved , in my opinion. Plus take a day off work for training.

zetor 4911

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120399635#Comment_120399635

Definitely would want north of 30 cows to make it worthwhile.

endainoz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120399682#Comment_120399682

But there simply isn't any alternative. The money has to be made somehow from the other schemes that are ending.

893bet

It a free money. And a couple of hoops. And the idea that you need 30 cows to make it worthwhile is not accurate IMO.

slightly off topic but I have a 5 star replacement heifer in calf for end of year. Highest replacement index on farm I think.

Mastitis. No idea how long she has it but I suspect 1 spin will be gone. Randomly felt her udder by accident thinking she was a different cow from behind. Very disappointing.

endainoz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120399635#Comment_120399635

I'm not sure that's entirely correct, if the calves under 5 months don't qualify you just won't get paid for them. I don't see how someone could get penalized as well for that, I could be wrong though.

freekerry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120400033#Comment_120400033

Ya on the terms and conditions it says u lose the payment for that element (20% of scheme) plus 10% penalty. That's if you comply with less than 80% of that requirement . That's what I understand from the document but open to correction

charolais0153

5 months there for a reason. Very skimpy calf coming off the cow at 4 months

893bet

If suckling why would you be weaning and selling the calves at 4 months? It’s not like you are summer grazing and have to get rid.

freekerry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120400530#Comment_120400530

Just doesn't suit my system to keep them after September. Fair enough, my setup is unusual .

endainoz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120400530#Comment_120400530

Yeah I don't how anyone would have to get rid of calves so soon, the argument doesn't make much sense.

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120400530#Comment_120400530

Lose a cow? Bill to be paid?