Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

SCEP or Sceptical

Options
1235

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,225 ✭✭✭charolais0153


    Is the dairy cows ebi system any good And they have perfect records.

    there was a thread a week ago saying fertility index a load of shite basically. Look at the top ebi bulls from a few years ago. Way down the list now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 171 ✭✭Jim Simmental


    Does anyone know how far Bord Bia go back during the inspection?


    Have a bit of homework to do here in order to get the paperwork right for a Bord Bia inspection?


    would the remedies completed say from January 2021 up to date be sufficient?



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,259 ✭✭✭tanko


    Six months i think, back to 2021 would be more than enough for sure.



  • Registered Users Posts: 149 ✭✭Diarmuid B


    They had a fella on the FJ podcast from bord bia and he said they only require paperwork for the previous 6 months



  • Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭Silverdream


    Was on the Dept Webinar there now, plenty question answered, they'll be putting it up on youtube in the next few days to watch.

    what bothers me about the scheme is we are not being paid for training. Why is the Suckler farmer not entitled to get paid for training that is forced on them. Every public sector worker gets paid for there training days, but its a case of screw the Suckler farmer.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 8,974 ✭✭✭893bet


    You are paid for the training. It’s part of the scheme which you sign up knowing you have to do it.

    Would it better if they dropped the payment per cow by 10 euros and then said you get 158 quid for the days training.



  • Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭Silverdream


    No payment for training.

    Dept think its ok for themselves to be paid for training but not the farmer, sur he's getting paid for being in the scheme.

    Its a sneaky trick they are pulling that just shows what they think of the suckler farmer



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,767 ✭✭✭Lime Tree Farm


    I'm more bothered about the futile extra paper work attached to it. I was hoping for an outcry against joining bb.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,974 ✭✭✭893bet


    Can’t keep farmers happy 😃 . i have said it here a million times.


    Noting sneaky about it.

    On one side there is a column showing what you will be paid.

    On the other side is all the hoops you gotta jump through including a training day.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,331 ✭✭✭Anto_Meath


    I have no problem with having to do the training its part of the hoops for the scheme. I have no problem with having to be in Bord Bia, can't really get cattle into the factory to be slaughtered without it anyway. Its worth €60 - €80 on cattle killed.

    But the star rating are the catch, they slide they showed even proved it, there was little or no difference between what was achieved for weanlins from 1 star or 5 star dams. Its a false system, if a cow is genotyped 5 star but then falls back over time to a 2 star she is still eligible once she stays in your herd but if you sell her she isn't eligible for the new owner. That just doesn't make any sense to me.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 9,259 ✭✭✭tanko


    There’s two half day training courses, one about SCEP and one about animal handling, it would be a bit much if both can’t be done on the same day.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14 Skerries Steve


    Watched the webinar, like a lot of people have said when the speaker from icbf mentioned that after all the data gathered over the previous years that 50% of the €1000 weanling come from 4 or 5 star cows, I couldn't believe what I was hearing meaning that the other 50% came from what all these experts consider the dregs of the suckler herd. You actually couldn't make it up.

    Icbf in particular is making simple situations very complicated just to keep plenty work on there desks and justify their jobs while the suckler farmer fools around with stupid and aimless objectives just to draw down the grant which really cannot be done without in Suckler farming.



  • Registered Users Posts: 586 ✭✭✭dh1985


    Think you have hit the nail on the head in the last paragraph. They haven't a clue. At this staged it's not even a flawed model but a failed model they are working too. The data doesn't back up their prediction for maximising genetic potential. A certain amount of outliers would be acceptable but there is no significant difference across the stars on calf quality after 8 years. I posted one instance above of my worst rated cow. Got a summary sheet from them today and started looking into my cows performance a bit more. Attached is a two star cow, small sample size of only 4 calves, but she is in my eyes is a top class breeder. Calf progeny details attached. My own bull, not AI. 365 calving interval. Fertile, quiet with milk. Her calf sold for alot more than 1k last October. I could pick another 2-3 cows that are similarly rated and equally as good. Then have 4-5 overrated at 4 and 5 stars that wouldn't breed as well. I only have a small number of cows so with the amount of anomalies I see within my own herd I couldn't put any creedence in their ratings.




  • Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭trg


    We're gonna be reducing numbers year on year. The 50% 4/5 star for eligible females won't be a major problem but it will as years go by and the ratio increases.

    Does anyone know can you reset the reference no. annually or are you stuck with the no. you pick now?

    I'm loathe to leave money behind but not keen on being tied to a higher no. of sucklers than I'd like as well as struggling with the stars.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,767 ✭✭✭Lime Tree Farm


    You can't increase the number, but can reduce the numbers each individual year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,767 ✭✭✭Lime Tree Farm


    The applicant must then set their “yearly reference number”. The applicant can reduce the reference number by up to 20% of what the previous year’s reference number was including year 1 or where the applicant had set the yearly reference number below the programme reference number in Year 1, they can go back up to the programme reference number. In year 1 this will be set at application stage, from 2024 it must be set in January of each scheme year. Where a farmer does not want to reduce in a specific year or any year, s/he has to take no action in January.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭Hard Knocks


    Probably already asked, is it herd plus or agfood you find your reference number and how you stand currently



  • Registered Users Posts: 666 ✭✭✭ABitofsense


    It's in Agfood where you apply. It shows your reference numbers and best years. You can set a number then based on what you want



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭Hard Knocks


    Thanks, assisting here (blind leading the blind). The ref is 70% of the current cow numbers. I gather all star criteria is against the ref number rather than the actual number.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,259 ✭✭✭tanko


    Yeah, if your programme reference no is 20 and you pick 20 as your 2023 reference no then you need to calve at least 10 cows, have 14 animals for genotyping and have at least 10 four/five star genotyped cows/heifers over 16 months in October. You could have 30 cows now but you only get paid on 20.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 2,461 ✭✭✭Jb1989


    Just to confirm, do you get paid for 20 cows (€150 plus each) even tho you may only calve 10?



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,259 ✭✭✭tanko


    Yeah, I think so. You have to calve at least 50% of the reference no you put in each year afaik.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,461 ✭✭✭Jb1989




  • Registered Users Posts: 872 ✭✭✭Stationmaster


    Just a follow up on this as I went to the mart last week with 2 weanlings. Both wintered out and no meal.

    First lad off a 4 star cow - nice weanling - 290 kg and made €890. Nothing special, price a little disappointing if anything.

    The second lad was lighter and out of a 2 star cow. 270kg. Made €1,120. As good a weanling as you'd see any day even if I do say so myself!

    So, I'm still torn between joining the scheme but having to replace half of the cows to his the star requirement or just concentrate on the cows that are returning the best weanlings irrespective of stars!! (or getting rid of them altogether which is what I was doing before I got the good price for the second lad cause I was having a **** week with them!!!).



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,974 ✭✭✭893bet


    I don’t think it’s an all or nothing scheme. Some money could be held back if you miss a requirement but I don’t think they look to reclaim all the money from year 1-3 if you miss a requirement in year 4 as an example but they do hold back that percentage Of payment for that action and apply a penalty.

    I am open to correction but see page 14 (if you can follow it).



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,259 ✭✭✭tanko


    That’s something my advisor emphasized. It’s not the end of the world with SCEP if you get a penalty or two and lose some money if you still get most of it, you would need to look at how the penalties are applied and see if the scheme still suits you. The penalties do get a bit more severe as the scheme progresses tho.



  • Registered Users Posts: 872 ✭✭✭Stationmaster


    Thanks for that - I hadn't clicked that. Going by it there'd be a 20% penalty if star numbers not achieved so that would still make it viable. I presume you wouldn't be allowed to keep going like that indefinitely but at least it might give you an extra year or two to replace. Thanks again.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭hopeso


    I think what this highlights clearly is that anyone with a herd of good cows producing good weanlings would be mad to join. You'll get the value of the grant and more when you sell the good calf, and no hoops to jump through. Plus whatever value you put on looking at or working with quality stock.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭Hard Knocks


    Listening to farmer the concerns are stars and BB as both can change and neither are at the control of the farmer. Teagasc seam to be bullying this through as well



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 6,225 ✭✭✭charolais0153




Advertisement