Sinn Féin finds further errors in 2020 election returns: 26th Jan 2023

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120695794#Comment_120695794

again i think you are confusing honest opinion (the government HAS fucked up and caused an immigration crisis in order to deflect from their **** governing) with waffle badly designed to move support from SF. The kind of voter you are talking about views SF as 'traitors' because of 'open borders'. When you find someone like that on twitter and follow to their account, more times than not they were never SF supporters in the first place going by their posts. Im sure theres a few government party supporters involved there. the public arent stupid.

Still must rub bad seeing how good the shinners are fairing after all the talk on here. Must stick in the oul craw. no wonder theres so much bitching about them going on. pure fear for change.

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704431#Comment_120704431

that indo rag is getting more like The Sun every day

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704959#Comment_120704959

Another aspect to this is that these people didn't come to SF, SF came to them. These people are linked to Gemma and the anti fluoride groups Brian Stanley was involved with. That Browne guy is into 911 holograms silliness. Wynne was involved with the Freeman nutters. They'll all have a common interest in antisemitism.

I think SF underestimated how nuts these guys are to be fair to them.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704959#Comment_120704959

The point I am making is that MLMD is running towards those voters with open arms, welcoming them in, with her words about "not enough consultation", the key phrase that all those racists hide behind.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704431#Comment_120704431

Are you confusing GDP (or even GNI*) with standard of living? Because they are very different things.

It's hard to have a decent standard of living when paying through the nose for housing, childcare, etc. Energy and food are more expensive here than most EU countries, in fact everything is...

So no not buying it unless you have some proper figures.

Indo article is absolute garbage. People can have all sorts of genuine reasons why a property is unsuitable for them. But as usual the Indo goes for sensationalism.

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120705325#Comment_120705325

this is not true

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120705138#Comment_120705138

i would not agree. these are the kind of people who bolstered SFs support initially, realising that the FF and FG they usually voted for had really messed things up. these same people have now some other kind of glitter they're running after and probably wont be voting SF again. I wouldn't be surprised to see those votes going to the irish national party or whoever the irish version of the NF are - or even back to FG where they most likely originated.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120967981#Comment_120967981

The less extreme one probably stayed with SF. The rest consider SF as traitors now after being invited into the fold.

Was a very strange situation, SF were flirting with Gemma and at the same time she was involved with a notorious member of the UVF.

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120968195#Comment_120968195

you obviously are watching a different party than the SF i know. they never flirted with anyone. due to the governments terrible governing, their voters have flocked to SF. We now see a lot of those voters are a bit racist ted, and thankfully those people see SF as traitors because SF arent racist. SF blame the government for issues, rather than the people flooding into the country.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120970503#Comment_120970503

I reckon they were attracted to SF because of their lax attitude to incidents of racism, homophobia, misogyny and antisemitisim from the like of Paddy Holohan, Brian Stanley and Reada Cronin. The far right had a slightly different meaning to Ireland for the Irish but SF turned a blind eye because at the time they needed the votes .

Violet Ann Wynne was one of Gemma's lot and the relationship between SF and Gemma was her introduction. SF supported her run for president too.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/new-sinn-fein-justice-spokesman-wanted-council-to-nominate-conspiracy-theorist-gemma-odoherty-to-run-for-president/42425052.html

At the same time SF were flirting with Gemma and supporting her Presidential push she was live streaming with Howson of the BNP and Britain First. I thought he was a member of the UVF but could be wrong. He helped Willie Frazer during the flag protests though.

I suspect SF underestimated how crazy this lot are.

jh79

Aidan Mullins SF from Laois helped her secure her nomination. I see he got into trouble for a social media post that was considered anti transgender and for some anti emigration statements too. Understandable that he would be a fan of Gemma.

https://www.laoistoday.ie/2023/05/31/this-is-a-difficult-topic-discuss-without-being-labelled-far-right-or-racist-if-you-raise-any-concerns/

jh79

Browne from Tipp also supported Gemma's Presidential push and pushes weird conspiracy theories.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/pressure-on-sfs-browne-to-address-comments-on-911-and-nazis/39864455.html

FrancieBrady

Not sure what the point is here jh, a FF councillor also supported her nomination. Were FF 'flirting' with her too?

Are we ascribing the views of random councillors to the parties in general?

Because that would be a fun activity.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120971776#Comment_120971776

No not the point i wanted to make. SF are a progressive party but have support amongst the far right which is a bit of a contradiction.

It's not a coincidence. Some members went down the conspiracy theories rabbit hole and brought these types into the fold. Maybe they weren't aware of this but as i said when party members were promoting her she was regularly streaming with Howson.

Violet becoming a TD probably made them think they had found a home and their lax attitude to homophobia, misogyny,racism and antisemitisim by certain members probably encouraged them too.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120971855#Comment_120971855

Lax attitudes?

From whom? Random councillors again?

We can engage this kind of hookey analysis with all parties and make it 'look' more sunstantive than it is. The Indo has sold many papers on the same basis as you.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120971910#Comment_120971910

Mullins, Stanley, Holohan, Browne and Cronin all made controversial statements online with little consequence. Holohan left of his own accord after all .

I don't think it's coincidence that people with political views that lean to the right support SF as some party members have been mixing in those circles for a while. Gemma getting nominations from SF members was a consequence of this relationship.

jh79

Not a phrase i was familiar with until recently but horseshoe theory seems apt.

https://ecpr.eu/Events/Event/PanelDetails/3246

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120971921#Comment_120971921

And you could do the same with any party. There are as many who have fallen foul of the central party in FF as there is in SF or FG etc. Even senior members have made controversial remarks, engaged in misognistic bullying etc and faced shock horror - 'little consequence'.

Holohan was suspended from the party BTW:

Speaking to reporters as part of her general election campaign, Mary Lou McDonald said that disciplinary action was now being taken against Mr Holohan in the wake of the story.

Paddy Holohan has been suspended from Sinn Féin over his claims that "scum" underage girls were having sex with men and blackmailing them | JOE is the voice of Irish people at home and abroad

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120972025#Comment_120972025

Holohan was only suspended and then decided not to come back. Should of been kicked out. But not really the issue here. Why does a left leaning party appeal to those on the right? All I am saying is that they have been mixing in those circles for a while so maybe it isn't that surprising.

Another example would be Carthy support of those in Strokestown. The protests were organised by the far right (DDI, Freemen, Yellow Vests, Land League etc) but Carthy still took part.

This article has an interesting take on it.

"For example, we regularly see in polling that some Sinn Féin supporters suggest they want lower taxes at the expense of public services, or as seen in today’s poll, that they are in favour of more funding for defence, or even that they don’t support a United Ireland. It appears that their support for the party is not really due to a more left-wing ideology and is not even entirely aligned with current Sinn Féin policy.

Rather it appears that Sinn Féin’s support is largely from those who feel they haven’t benefited from the establishment, who no longer trust it and who believe the political system as it stands is broken."

https://www.redcresearch.ie/the-social-divide-in-irish-politics-march-2022-opinion-poll/

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120972092#Comment_120972092

Only suspended is a long way away from ‘little consequence’.

The remarks had a consequence.

Maybe balance out your thought process here jh.

All parties have issues with random rogue comments and members not always towing the party line.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120972314#Comment_120972314

For racism, misogyny and homophobia to the level he went , the consequences were lax. He wasn't kicked out of the party to the surprise of many. Would they have let him return if he had renewed his membership?

SF are popular with the right. All i am saying is that some prominent members were mixing in those circles for a number of years through a shared belief in various conspiracy theories. Cronin and Violet are anti vax. Browne believes in 9/11 conspiracies around lasers and holograms. Cronin was rebuked by the party for antisemitic remarks. Antisemitisim is a cornerstone of conspiracy theories. Those involved in Strokestown that Carthy supported would be anti immigrant and anti vax. They all worked together over the years but have all fallen out with each other since.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120972386#Comment_120972386

He made comments, which could have been construed in a few ways and were.

Go look at instances in other parties of actual misogyny and bullying and what happened there. They were allowed back in the party after a period.

This is the 'balance' your analysis is missing.

Political organisations attract unsavory people and have members who behave against the policy and codes of the main party - all of them.

I don't see SF as any different to the rest of them on this.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120972620#Comment_120972620

Are you saying Holohan was unfairly treated?? C'mon, i know you feel obliged to defend SF but in this case there was no ambiguity. What he said ticked all the boxes.

Anti immigrant feelings among SF voters isn't that surprising because prominent members have been mixing with the far right conspiracy theorists for years as I am sure you are aware.

Wynne was a Gemma supporter and was allowed join the party. SF were the only mainstream party to support her Presidential push. All of the SF members mentioned regularly tweeted their support for Gemma and other conspiracy theorists with right wing views.

All parties have rogue members but SF have a particular issue with right wingers at the moment. While they have fallen out with most of them, how they ended up with this type of support isn't surprising as they been mixing with these lot for years.

maccored

i think the idea that SF were running after a load of far right agitators is a bit ott. i can see how those who dont like SF would promote that as fake news alright, but if you look at SFs track record when it comes to equality and fairness for all, it just doesnt tie in.

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120972989#Comment_120972989

as already outlined, those with anti immigration feelings were late to the party because they werent invited. those with fare right attitudes are moving on, looking for their version of the NF. they wont find that in SF. Back to FG with them I say

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120972989#Comment_120972989

You are running with stuff that doesn’t support anything much.

If SF policy has changed I’m not seeing it. Which leads me to believe they have the same tolerance for rogue and out of sync members as all the other parties have had. As I said if you want to create the same narrative as you have about them, you could.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120974573#Comment_120974573

There's a very clear difference though Francie; the nutters are going to be more attracted to what they perceive as a more anti-establishment party.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120974603#Comment_120974603

If you can point to major policy shifts as a result, go ahead.

I am anti establishment btw. Look around you, the ‘establishment’ is responsible for the crisis we have seen, from housing to RTE.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120974641#Comment_120974641

My point wasn't that SF had inherently changed their policies (though putting it very kindly, their position on the SCC has certainly changed, and let's just say their position on the EU has.....evolved).

It was actually that their policies don't actually matter; they're an on-paper leftist party that are undoubtedly starting to add voters from the nutty end of the far right; it isn't because of their policies but rather entirely because they aren't FF or FG.

I'd hardly be considered supportive of the establishment myself, I'm just not buying SF's BS; I'm not going to vote for a sucker punch over a kick in the balls.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120974714#Comment_120974714

Well I don’t expect SF to be a major change from what we have had. I just expect them to change what we have had. It will change our politics IMO.

I don’t have a problem with parties evolving policy wise, they all have.I like party’s who can evolve.

Try persuading a 1980’s FGer on same sex marriage, heck the leader only changed his views/policy in the last few years. Like jh you can construct easy narratives if you ignore everyone else.