Sinn Féin finds further errors in 2020 election returns: 26th Jan 2023

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121018786#Comment_121018786

He ‘wrote’ an article illustrated with photos = language and the tone used.

He spoke on radio = tone.

He apologied for ‘any’ offence caused and accepts it was ‘wrong’.

There is no gotcha blackwhite unless you exaggerate of course.

From the get go I said what he published was wrong, you are making up stuff again, I did not defend it.

Goodnight.

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121017226#Comment_121017226

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121017093#Comment_121017093

From the get go I said what he published was wrong

There’s your first post on the topic, and your second……. any more falsehoods for us?

He posted pictures of people and car regs - he inferred they were paedophiles. He claimed that gay men meeting up for cruising in a park “are putting our children at risk”.

He hasn’t apologised for any of that - just fudged about “language and tone”, and engaging in victim-blaming while he’s at it. He’s the lowest of the low, and yet seemingly another hill that you are willing to die on.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121018898#Comment_121018898

From the get go of discussing what he actually wrote, I never defended him and criticised him.

'Approximately 15 years ago' he 'was the editor of a local newspaper in Mayo that published an article'.

That was an article that included photographs...he apologised for the article.

That he didn't use the exact phraseology you wanted him to is your issue and as I said, you are free to not accept the apology.

There is no 'hill' to die on here.

Like many politicians before him, he has apologised, like many politicians too, his views are quite likely to have changed.

That will either be evident or not. We'll see.

The original point I made is, that there are plenty in all parties who have said and done things in the past, we could open a fun thread on it (if you were arsed) they present a problem for their parties if those views start appearing in party policy/actions.

I asked, have any of the views this guy expressed found their way into SF policy?

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019557#Comment_121019557

Keep shifting the goalposts Francie.

You’ve badly let your mask slip with the claim that:

All he did was use 'language and tone' wrongly

Given you clearly don’t see anything wrong with publishing peoples photos, and inferring that they might be a danger to children, simply because they are gay. He hasn’t apologised for that - no matter how many times you repeat the lie.

You aren’t as stupid as you are pretending to be here - but you really are demonstrating to everyone just how low you’ll stoop to defend anything SF

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019671#Comment_121019671

Shifting goalposts?

I initially asked (you posted the links) where his 'hard right' views were showing up in SF policy. Has not been answered yet.

I see you have now moved on to making unsubstantiated claims about me.

Given you clearly don’t see anything wrong with publishing peoples photos, and inferring that they might be a danger to children, simply because they are gay.

Pathetic really. You know you can't back that up but post it anyhow.

I'll repeat for you what I've have been saying all along: The article/publication was wrong and should not have happened.

blackwhite

All he did was use 'language and tone' wrongly

Your own words, nobody else’s. There for anyone to read on the thread. Yet accuse others of making stuff up for repeating your own words to you. As I said, you aren’t as stupid as you are pretending to be here.

You were the one introducing the strawman about “hard policies”, when the point was continuing to push candidates like this are exactly how SF continue to dig-whistle to far right elements to court their votes

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019748#Comment_121019748

He 'wrote' that the man in the car did what he did. He used 'language' to do that and illustrated it with a photograph.

If you cannot grasp that concept, that's your issue.

I called the article out as wrong. Fact.

You with others raised the red flag that SF were courting the 'hard right'. I asked how this was affecting the policy of the party.

Seems it isn't, as not one of you have addressed the question.

I also said that all parties have councillors whose views don't match the central party policy...linked to some of them too.

You want to vilify someone who may have changed his views, again, like many other politicians. Have at it.

Now you want to vilify me for views I have never expressed here. And all the while you think you are free to make up stuff that was never expressed by this guy and infer there is a 'well document history of homophobia'.

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019781#Comment_121019781

His rag of a paper is his well documented history of homophobia, amongst other things. Tie yourself in knots defending the honour of a homophobe all you want - it's entertaining if nothing else. If you're so dishonest that you won't own what you typed just yesterday, then that's on you

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019813#Comment_121019813

Do you believe people can change their views? Because we could fill pages here of the changed views of many politicians.

I criticised his publication and I am prepared to accept his apology. What an awful person I am! 😁

*Dishonest? You are the one making up quotes you couldn't back up. And this 'well documented history' that I have to ask somebody else for. 😁😁

Don't say stuff you cannot back up.

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019859#Comment_121019859

You made it very clear how keen you were to downplay that there was any serious wrongdoing at all.

All he did was use 'language and tone' wrongly

No problem with the content at all, just the language and tone.

Where exactly is there any evidence that he has changed his views? He lied in his statement about having apologised previously.

His only commitment for the future is "to try hard to use language that is inclusive, and non-offensive". No apology, or even mention, of publishing people's photographs and implying that they are a threat to children. No acknowledgment that the content of what he posted was wrong, just the language used.

jh79

So is the standard as long as the policies are progressive members can indulge in occasional homophobia?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019922#Comment_121019922

You didn't answer yet another question.

Do you believe that people can change their views?

Because there is plenty of evidence, as I said, that they can.

He has apologised for the offence he caused with the article and has accepted he was wrong...what other evidence is there? Do you have any? Has he expressed homophobic views, if so, where?

Please do not direct me to ask someone else.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019952#Comment_121019952

All parties have members who express views not in line with party policy. I knew this simple fact when I voted for FF, FG and SF in the past.

I am not sure how you square that circle.

How do you cope with members of the party you vote for expressing views not in line with the party policy?

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121020021#Comment_121020021

Why keep lying?

His apology stated "The tone and language were offensive to the LGBTQ community" - nowhere does he acknowledge that the content and false allegations made were wrong, and nowhere does he apologies for publishing photographs whilst alleging that the men were a danger to children.

He has provided zero evidence, or even claims, of having changed his views - just a fudge about changing the language he uses in future.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121020030#Comment_121020030

But we are talking about racism, homophobia and misogyny with regards to the mentioned SF members, not economic policy etc. Big difference.

While it's normal for party members to go against policy in this type of case the punishment is important otherwise you are tolerating the intolerant.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121020087#Comment_121020087

Ok, another very quick google brings up these from the major parties in the state:

Racism: Traveller groups say apology is not enough from Fine Gael politician (irishexaminer.com)

Fine Gael’s Darren Scully quits as mayor of Naas over his comments about ‘black Africans’ | Independent.ie

Senator should make statement over racist tweets, says Varadkar | Independent.ie

Homophobia: Fianna Fail Councillor: Lesbians having babies is 'gross' • GCN

Fine Gael Councillor Sent Horrible Homophobic Note On Party Member Letter | TheSlicedPan.com

Misogyny: Senior Fine Gael member faces suspension over ‘abusive tweets’ (thetimes.co.uk)

9 times when Irish politics has been really sexist · TheJournal.ie

Many of these apologised and continued in the party.

As far as I am aware the subject here was not a member of SF when he published the document. So 'punishment' is not an issue.

He has when challenged apologised, just like all of those and many more above. SF have no policies matching what he published as FF and FG have no policy matching what was said by those above. FF and FG do have a history of actually discriminating against women, gay and lesbian people too BTW

All of which I accepted when I voted for them, safe in the knowledge that they were no longer doing it via their policies.

So go on, tell us how you rationalise it. If you vote for other parties to the above, just tell us who and I'm sure google will oblige.

I accept the apology, like many before - if it isn't genuine then we will no doubt find out soon enough.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121020231#Comment_121020231

Could be wrong but only two of that list remain.

Not your fault but that TheSlicedPan.com is very misleading, she received the letter from an unnamed member. Article headline makes it sound like she sent it.

My reference to punishment was for Holohan who was a member long after his offence. And it was quite an extreme example. A different level to what Stanley did.

I think the other guy shouldn't be given a second chance because it was so offensive and not from a different era when homophobia was rife and accepted.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121020527#Comment_121020527

Ok, you don't think people can change their views.

Luckily, in this country, views of the ruling political parties changed massively, many who were members of parties blocking rights for gays, for instance, still remain in their parties. That was homophobic discrimination, no other word for it. My parents and their generation believed stuff we would be appalled at too.

People can and do change.

People have to be allowed change their views IMO. Otherwise there isn't a party out there you could vote for. And I suspect you are probably turning a blind eye to the many many incidents out there (there are many more than the few I posted)

No evidence of recent homophobic comments from this guy with a 'well documented history of homophobia' (only he possesses apparently) has been presented, so I am happy that he has changed his views.

So, as I have said, he apologised and accepts what he published was wrong.

Good enough for me as long as it is genuine.

markodaly

Same ol, same ol

In a SF thread, I see the only defence against wrong doings by SF is to post stuff about FF and FG.

This type of posting behaviour was banned in the C&A super threads, yet its allowed to go on here.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121020671#Comment_121020671

I didn't defend what he published.

I made the point that all parties have members, councilors and TD's who say and publish things not in line with party policy and asked how other posters reconcile this when voting. AFAIK this guy was not even a member of SF when he published this stuff.

I asked the question in a reasonable way, not in defence of anything SF have done here.

I fail to see what they have done that is unique or requires a 'defence'.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121020608#Comment_121020608

People can and do change. I'm 44 so grew up in a time when these types of statements were tolerated but it wasn't far back enough for me to say it was a different time etc in the latest case. His apology could of been better. Never heard of the guy until yesterday so am only judging him on what was reported yesterday.

With SF members associating with Gemma's lot and the regular media reports of these types of statements it's hardly surprising those who lean to the right tend to choose SF.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121020903#Comment_121020903

The truth is that those who lean to the right can be found throughout the main parties.

The test is, are their views showing up in the policy of those party's

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121020671#Comment_121020671

same old same old - all I see are the usual bunch grasping at straws as they hold their heads in fear of SF getting into government

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019748#Comment_121019748

The claim was that Sinn Fein were attracting hard-right support through dog-whistling on homophobia and immigration. The example was given of this newly selected candidate that has clearly made homophobic comments (so not a relic candidate from the past of SF).

The strawman response was that Sinn Fein don't have far-right policies (nobody claimed they did).

The defensive response was that because he apologised for the tone but not the homophobic content, all is fine with the world (it isn't because he stands over the pedophilia accusations).

The deflective response was whatabout FG councillors not following policy (didn't read any example of FG councillors accusing gay people of being pedophiles).

Have I summed up the discussion accurately?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121026262#Comment_121026262

The counter claim asked, how are these dogwhistles manifesting themselves?

In publications written by somebody who wasn't in SF in 2008? 🙄

And then there is the familiar - the apology didn't say what I wanted it to say so therefore isn't an apology at all.

“Approximately 15 years ago I was the editor of a local newspaper in Mayo that published an article about men frequenting a local lake in the town. The tone and language were offensive to the LGBTQ community, and unhelpful to those who feared coming out to friends and family. I took full responsibility for publishing the article.

“I apologised at the time for the tone and language, and for the offence that was caused, and I do so again. It was a mistake, it was wrong, and I learned from it. I can only promise in the future to try hard to use language that is inclusive, and non-offensive, and I will do my very best to do so.

“I am glad that the Ireland of today is a more inclusive society than it was then, and I am committed to protecting our LGBTQ community from all forms of prejudice and discrimination”.

Homophobia is a 'prejudice' and 'discrimination' blanch and he is committed to protecting the LGBTQ community from all forms of it. I presume and any sensible person would that includes any prejudice and discrimination from him and the party he seeks to represent.

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121026549#Comment_121026549

Given he lies in the statement about having apologised at the time, every other claim within it should be taken with a hefty pinch of salt as well.

And despite your repeated lies to the contrary - he still hasn't apologised for publishing people's pictures, or for alleging that those people were a threat to children. He hasn't apologies for propagating the old conspiracy theory that gays are paedos either. He's put the bare minimum of a victim-blaming non-apology into the statement simply so the SF acolytes can try to silence criticism of him, but avoided actually apologising for the offensive items he published.

But at least the Burke's have a candidate to vote for in Castlebar now

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121026628#Comment_121026628

You assume he hasn't apologised before now. You don't actually know.

He apologised for the article...he didn't pick out sentences in it or photos, he apologised for it and ANY offence it may have caused and he also accepted it was wrong and will seek in the future to protect the LGBTQ community from similar prejudice and discrimination.

What you are doing is the classic iteration of -  the apology didn't say what I wanted it to say so therefore isn't an apology at all.

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121026653#Comment_121026653

Why lie? He apologised simply for "language and tone" - which of course you've tried to claim was the only thing wrong about an article that published photos of people and alleged that they were a danger to children.

I had the mispleasure of reading the Echo article, and the follow up articles at the time. I also heard his car-crash appearance on Joe Duffy (links to the archive of it have been shared on twitter again this week). He refused to apologise, and threatened to publish more pictures at the time. Oh, and of course used the favourite SF SLAPP tactic to try and shut down a website that allowed people criticise him on it.

Any evidence for the claim he wasn't an SF member at the time this was pubished - according to Mayo Sinn Fein "Tony has been a Sinn Féin activist for many years." You wouldn't happen to have some inside information on when he actually joined?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121026705#Comment_121026705

I get the fact that at the time he said this stuff, I DO NOT defend it - it was totally and unequivocally WRONG.

The point I have made is people can and do change opinions, look around you and past your own prejudice and bias.

I assume he wasn't a member. No idea if he was or not. And again I would say, if he was, then the views he had at the time have not manifested themselves in SF policy in the intervening years. So again, proves my point, all parties have and had these types but it doesn't mean the party shares the views.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121026705#Comment_121026705

He may well have only been an activist at the time. From my experience there are plenty of Sinn Fein activists who are not members of the party.

However, the default assumption would have to be that he was a member at the time, given the statement from Mayo Sinn Fein, unless someone was to claim they are lying about his long-time association with the party.