Taxation of alternative fuelled vehicles

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121159820#Comment_121159820

More fixation with SUV’s. I don’t get it.

All this from people in offices with company cars and drivers to ferry them around.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121159838#Comment_121159838

To be completely fair to your last point I think Brian Leddin cycles and takes the bus/train everywhere

I think this is more a case of EVs not being taxed as heavily as ICEs and the exchequer losing out as a result. Sneaky way of making sure our heavier cars pay more

amdaley28

What a pity that some of these so called experts & some of our politicians couldn't be taxed based on weight 😏

It's very easy to suggest something that won't affect themselves.

Cyrus

what im getting from the last 2 pages of this thread is that i need to get rid of my 'fat' etron before im bankrupted 😁

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121159838#Comment_121159838

Many of these company cars are now SUVs. It will be interesting to see how they define an SUV. You could nearly fit a Yaris cross (SUV) into the boot of the upcoming Kia EV9 or the current BMW X7. More populist claptrap to justify higher taxation under the guise of climate change action.

Busman Paddy Lasty

Climate advocates being used as useful idiots by Revenue, instead of the German car industry last time.

Just like CO2 emissions a weight based tax doesn't take into account whether the car is driven 5,000 km or 50,000 km per year.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121160570#Comment_121160570

Amazimg how commercial vehicle weight/emissions has feck all climate change impact...rhose heinous private motorists

Busman Paddy Lasty

Or the unimaginable quantities of shipping fuel that will be burned moving vast amounts of Brazilian beef to Europe. Directly at the expense of thier rainforest and meat quality for the European consumer.

I don't know if it's sheer incompetence and lack of planning skills or a genuine conspiracy of business using the environmental movement for their own gain.

Firblog

Think it is only fair that heavier cars are taxed more, they do more damage/wear and tear on the infrastructure; but it also should be based on mileage.

Dunno how easy it is to 'clock' cars now? but if not easy, couldn't mileage recorded @ NCT be used as basis for part of the road tax?

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121160879#Comment_121160879

Plenty of cars on the road have not yet had an NCT. And if under 10 years old they only get one every 2 years.

Firblog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121161400#Comment_121161400

Yeah and the mileage they've travelled gets recorded every 2 years. Everyone has a fair idea of the distance they cover every month, so fairly easy to pay set monthly road tax based on that, then when actual distance is recorded on NCT the difference can be paid either way - over pay monthly get money back, underpay monthly get a bill in the post.

JohnC.

Sounds unnecessarily complicated.

donkey balls

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120870212#Comment_120870212

As someone who has worked in the transportation industry Air/Road for over 25 years, The majority of trucks on the road would not even gross the actual weight they can pull.

Take the supermarkets for instance Dunnes clothing a full artic would hold 26 pallets, And even gross near what it can carry.

The same would apply to FMCG delivery's to all of the supermarkets, Artic trucks are the most economically affective and newer trucks have better emissions and trucks are tested annually regardless of year of truck.

There is nothing in anyone's house/apartment that at one time hasn't been on the back of a truck, Just imagine no trucks in Ireland moved for 48hrs.

The country would come to a stand still hospitals/Ambulance bases airports supermarkets petrol stations buses trains pubs/restaurants hotels &schools.

As for the new tax mentioned its just a money grab and I've being saying it for years. That the 6 billion in revenue they get from petroleum products will be lost.

They want congestion charges and distance charges brought in even if we are all driving EV. The ERSI even suggested making it impossible to drive into the city centers,Looks like they started on it with Dublin fast changing lights making you drive around in circles before getting to you're destination.

Woodie40

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086174#Comment_120086174

Your legs?

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121160570#Comment_121160570

We have a km or "distance travelled" based tax, it's called VAT - also we have ones called Excise and Carbon taxes for ICE vehicles

The more you travel the more tax you pay

In the UK, EVs pay nothing on road tax and it isn't a whole lot for other cars. Why not follow their model instead of the French model?

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162369#Comment_121162369

Walking and cycling produces more emissions than driving an EV that is purely charged on PV (given that the EV and solar install are already made)

Busman Paddy Lasty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162449#Comment_121162449

I never said anything about following French model.

In this thread and others I'm blue in the face saying we already have fuel taxes and duties which aligns with the User Pays principle and more taxes on top of taxes targeting motorists are a disgrace.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162629#Comment_121162629

Unless you're referring to a bad bout of flatulence while walking I think you're probably incorrect on that one

I really hate the "EVs create carbon when manufactured" argument, but in this case they do lock up a lot more emissions in the production phase than a bike or a pair of decent runners

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121160879#Comment_121160879

I think a function of weight and size is best, punish big SUVs that take up too much road space and encourage smaller vehicles

sh81722

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121160113#Comment_121160113

It depends if the tax is applied as VRT (like the NOx) or as yearly motor tax.

If latter our "fat" Model 3 LR will be hit by an extra 130 quid a year as it's apparently 128 kg over the suggested 1800 kg weight limit.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162785#Comment_121162785

Agree but the problem is those established taxes/duties can't be successfully transferred to EVs so what to do to continue to milk the future greener private motorist

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162785#Comment_121162785

Just to be clear the reference I made to the french model has been highly touted in the media. I wasn't trying to say you made the claim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162849#Comment_121162849

I really hate the "EVs create carbon when manufactured" argument, but in this case they do lock up a lot more emissions in the production phase than a bike or a pair of decent runners

I hate that argument too, makes it seem that the carbon emitted in EV production outweighs the total emissions of an ICE, which frankly is a ridiculous argument. Probably made up by the oil producing companies

Woodie40

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163154#Comment_121163154

If we ceased using oil today. Would we have enough clean energy to charge/manufacture all electric vehicles and keep the lights on in Ireland? Or do we need to continue using fossil fuels for the next decade or so to power all those EV’s, households and workplaces etc etc

sh81722

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163437#Comment_121163437

The answer is a resounding no. It's actually frightening how far we are from that.

amdaley28

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163437#Comment_121163437

Simple answer is No.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163437#Comment_121163437

The slightly more complex answer is no

But

It's important to understand how carbon intensive the grid is at various times. It's at it's most carbon intensive in the evening when electricity demand is highest and lots of fossil fuels are being used

Conversely, it's at it's lowest carbon intensity during the night when everyone is asleep. Typically this also means electricity is much cheaper and most EV charging is done during that time

Basically, the renewable generators get to provide generation first and the fossils pick up any shortfall

So what would happen to the grid if we suddenly switched over to EVs?

Well assuming all 2.5 million (approximately) cars in Ireland charged at midnight at 7kW it would add 17.5GW of demand to the grid

Maximum historical demand was 7GW, so that would definitely be a problem

Of course that's probably not going to happen, for one thing not every car charges every night, and it's probable there could be rotating charging times by area to stabilise the grid

However in the short term if would result in significant additional demand at night which would require the use of fossil generators

On the plus side, the amount of renewables in the grid would be a lot bigger than zero. Looking at the Eirgrid dashboard, the amount of wind generation at night is often 2-3MW (Storm Agnes is generating a whopping 5MW of wind energy at the moment)

So it could be 30-40% of the energy to charge all the cars in Ireland is coming from renewables, which is way better than the 0% achieved by petrol or diesel cars

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163437#Comment_121163437

Would we have the clean energy to charge all electric cars - Not a hope

Do we have enough energy if we include "dirty" energy in that mix? - Yes

Do we need to continue using fossil fuels for the next decade - No. It should be much faster than that. The 3GW of offshore wind that we all heard about in July is due to come on stream before 2030 so less than 7 years away to use one example provided the political will sticks around

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163812#Comment_121163812

To add to your point, the average mileage car only needs that 7kw charge for one hour per day (15,000km per year).

So for the 2.1 million cars you'd have 350,000 charging at a time (assuming all charging is overnight (12-6) and staggered).

Gives us 2450 mwh of extra demand, ( for the number of EVs we might have in 2050).

peak demand - night demand is around 2000mwh so we have already have the power generation capacity for that amount of EVs.

Issue is renewables are ramping too slowly and electrification of heat, buses, trucks etc... will also need a huge amount of new electricity generation. But once we have enough electricity capacity to meet peak demand from renewables the night surpluses should be plenty for charging EVs.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121700820#Comment_121700820

People need to realise that presently ICE bring in huge revenue in duty, VAT and motor tax.

This then pays for the upkeep of roads and other things.

At some point a formula will need to be devised to charge EV's proportionately for road maintenance.

My point being the big reason for your €1/kWh difference is taxation and incentivisation and this will begin to narrow at some stage.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121701504#Comment_121701504

EVs are not tax free nor is electricity though. And the incentives now are near to fk all tbh. Next year they'll probably be 0.

What about the carbon fines we are paying out on... ?