Taxation of alternative fuelled vehicles

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120089216#Comment_120089216

Dubious savings it has to be said.

Our EV's are substantially powered from fossil fuels anyway.

Mined from the ground using diesel, the road they drive on is build and maintained, using diesel.

When one gets stuck on the side of the road, it's diesel that gets us home.

innrain

In a far away future where most of the energy used by households would be electric the charging can be tapered. The first xxxx kWh x% excise, between xxxx and yyyy kWh x+y% and so on. That will incentivize efficient use. Efficient heating, efficient appliances, efficient cars. We already pay the gas bill per kWh and not volume used. It can be harmonized for all fuel types, trow in some green house/pollution levy and you get a comprehensive model. I think something similar was proposed for water chargers and it was shut down so probably won't work :)

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120089216#Comment_120089216

I doubt it, the likelihood is any new regime will apply differential rates based on the vehicle. Weight and emissions class will likely be factors.

While tolling doesn't directly benefit the government because it isn't income for them, a more extensive system of tolls that can't be avoided would likely pay for a lot of maintenance of the motorway network. And in turn that means it no longer needs to be funded by the taxpayer

Tolling doesn't have to be a public private partnership, take the example of the East Link bridge, the money from that goes directly to Dublin City Council.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120089499#Comment_120089499

Oh it absolutely doesn't have to be public-private, but I don't see our current government interested in setting up any new state run enterprises

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120090554#Comment_120090554

It wouldn't be a state run enterprise if it was a replacement for current motor tax and fuel duty, it would just be an alternative mechanism for collecting tax based on km's travelled. No doubt the actual running of it would be outsourced.

PaulJoseph22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086475#Comment_120086475

Didn't The Green Party encourage everyone to buy diesel, I never bought or drove a diesel in R.O.I. until the Green Party incentivised us to do so, laughable really... We no longer use diesel.....

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120093675#Comment_120093675

If all your focused on is reducing CO2 emissions then Diesel was a much better option at the time than petrol. You might remember the international conspiracy by auto makers to hide particulate emissions from diesel engines. The bigger question should really be why the government of 2015 didn't change the diesel advantage when the problems with particulate emissions became apparent.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094031#Comment_120094031

When you've dug yourself into a pit then you may as well keep digging I guess

To be fair to the government, I can see why they didn't raise taxes on diesel straight away. A lot of the general public got super as well and is it right they get punished for being lied to?

I do think they could have rolled back some of the cheaper taxes and matched diesel prices to petrol quicker to at least make diesel vastly less appealing

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094031#Comment_120094031

Would thatatne have been influenced by the fac that modern diesels are actually pretty clean?

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-6733271/Are-diesel-cars-really-dirty-Tests-reveal-models-produce-zero-NOx-emissions.html

However, the Govt did introducea Nox levy for private motorists to ensure that older and more dirty diesels would no longer be imported from UK unless of course it was commercial which could continue to be imported and chug awaye

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120085482#Comment_120085482

km based tolling is definitely being considered anyway.

This is probably a kite flying article, but for sure its being considered as a possible solution across the entire road network (not just motorways)

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41046686.html

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099032#Comment_120099032

As far as I'm aware, and I am open to correction on this, existing roads can't be tolled under EU rules, only new ones... In saying that the UK, while part of the EU, introduced "congestion charges" on existing roads in London and Durham so I'm thinking this fact might not apply

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099032#Comment_120099032

Project Bruce... it's made me think of the main character from Irvine Welsh's novel Filth

Probably not the best association 😂

zg3409

In terms of tax per km, all new cars have emergency calling which requires GPS and a phone SIM. Indirectly they all have some sort of position logging system and so in theory it would be possible in 10/15 years for all cars to report the location and distances driven over mobile phone l, which could be used for a city and rural per km tax.

Existing smart meters report usage every 3 minutes and existing systems "guess" and report usage on websites such as washing machine, lighting etc, just based on usage data without knowing exactly what was turned on. While people could bypass esb meters, very few do, so it works good enough.

General motor tax or vrt or fixed annual taxes work well in terms of they are easy to collect, don't vary and so are predictable and they often don't help reduce consumption, as in I have paid my 1000 euro motor tax why take the bus instead I should drive to local sweet shop for the newspaper.

As said we used to tax based on engine size, which created odd engine sizes such as 1.999 litre instead of 2L, and small engines with unusually high power outputs and now engines designed to produce low emissions during a fixed test but still produce high performance during hard pedal pressed. I laugh at saying we now have clean diesel, while emissions are not measured while the DPF is regenerating and burning off soot. It's like measuring a humans CO2 while they hold their breadth.

The green party seems anti car even EV, and ideally we want people driving small efficient EVs and charging overnight on green power. We also want cars to last a long time. Fixed annual costs like motor tax are not great to reduce number of driving trips. Time of purchase taxes like vrt can help encourage people to buy the better cars such as small and EV.

Usage such as diesel taxes do encourage people to switch to EV where usage costs are less. .

It's also a political issue, targeting rural Ireland, targeting low income commuters, targeting rich EV owners such as the hate towards big BMW SUV drivers or those buying 100k EVs getting supported.

Politicians are very careful to not stick their foot in it or blame "Europe"

slave1

Will never happen, rural (think outside Dublin/Cork maybe Galway) Ireland has sh1te pubic transport options or none at all, we need our cars to make a living so majority of TD's will be saying no to this else risk non-election.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166022#Comment_120166022

I don't think this comment is going to age well. We already have road usage taxation by applying it as excise duty on fuel. This will have to be replaced.

unkel

Road use taxation is inevitable in the long run really, but it's a nasty system as it requires a lot of admin to administer, unlike fuel excise, which is relatively simple with a relatively high yield

slave1

..and therein lies the problem....

let them come up with an economic solution so, easiest starting point if we are looking at fuel is excise on public charging, but then how do they tax home charging? If they look to ODO readings then lots of folk will be spinning it back with software and what about anyone anywhere near the border who can legitatemly claim out of state travel

"they" don't have the imagination to come up with a workable system that will be both economic and politically acceptable to the masses

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166022#Comment_120166022

In fairness all of these political concerns existed prior to the birth of EVs. It didn't stop politicians, including rural politicians, supporting the introduction of punative VRT and motor tax and fuel duties for private motorists. No reason why these taxes, other than fuel duties, can't equally be applied to EVs.

Now, of course, a proposal to increase duty on green diesel would undoubtedly result in the immediate fall of a Govt. Some shouts remain louder than others

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166916#Comment_120166916

Why would an Irish politicians imagination come into play, all the discussion around road usage pricing is being done at a transnational level via institutions such as the EU and UNECE.

There was directive on it just last year.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32022L0362#:~:text=DIRECTIVE%20%28EU%29%202022%2F362%20OF%20THE%20EUROPEAN%20PARLIAMENT%20AND,of%20vehicles%20for%20the%20use%20of%20certain%20infrastructures

slave1

...and how did the water meters go......

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120167674#Comment_120167674

The technology used in them isn't likely to be used for road usage pricing unless we plan on trailing hosepipes behind us

slave1

It wasn't the technology I was referring to, it was the political upheaval

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120168035#Comment_120168035

Ah, the upheaval of replacing a road usage charge applied as excise duty on fuel with a road usage charge applied more transparently. Is that going to be any worse than the upheaval of giving "rich people who can afford ev's" a free pass on this source of taxation.

slave1

Totally depends on what that transparent method is, current (liquid fuel) is easily administered and collected

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120561838#Comment_120561838

That's not fair for people like myself who live rural and travel ong distances for work. There's no jobs in rural Ireland.

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667497#Comment_120667497

While I agree with you, houses are cheaper so it does sorry of balance out a bit.

We also don't have road tax in Ireland.

The goal should be to stop dirty fossils being bought rather than penalizing them afterwards. VRT is the tax for this. 50% increase per year until 2030 on all cars >0g

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667497#Comment_120667497

It's also pretty silly for people like me who drive less than 10km per day. I still need roads to drive on and the income from me driving per kilometre would never cover the costs of construction or maintenance of those roads

Stevie2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667497#Comment_120667497

Should be no motor tax

It should be on the fuel and electric, you drive more, you pay more

They need to get smart meters in everywhere and distinguish between general electric usage and car usage, which should be pretty easy as they cars take over 5kW per hour for a sustained amount of time.

Adding 7c per kW and 20c per litre would be my target, use that for roads

c.p.w.g.w

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120084918#Comment_120084918

Find it madness this drive to electrify everything, yet there are concerns about electricity production(well when it's actually needed) and lots of places are removing nuclear...it just makes zero sense

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669232#Comment_120669232

Pretty much impossible to tag an electron as going to a particular destination and doesn't address the fact that a person charging using their own solar power then stops paying for road maintenance.