Taxation of alternative fuelled vehicles

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667519#Comment_120667519

We already have one of the highest registration taxes in the world. A lot of cars are already taxed at 40%. Increasing it further would be ridiculous.

And in fact it would put pretty much every used car dealer in the country out of business overnight.

The UK are doing just fine with the switch to electric whilst maintaining 0% VRT on all cars.

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669232#Comment_120669232

Rubbish. I have solar panels so I shouldn't be taxed on energy I produce myself.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667519#Comment_120667519

So basically fcuk those who need a 7 seater or have no home charging or who tow regularly. Smacks of an I'm alright Jack proposal. EVs are being subsidised by the tax payer and are cheap to run for those who can home charge, especially if they have capacity to install solar. EV sales are already increasing substantially yoy, why not leave it at that for the time being, at least until the EV market has matured and a broader range of EVs are both available and affordable. Why do some always feel the need to put the jack boot in?

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120681614#Comment_120681614

Exactly easiest way to tax EVs in the short term is to apply a reasonable motor tax rate, say €500 per year, and be done with it. Still very cheap to run compared to ICEs

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120682269#Comment_120682269

EV's and other cars should be taxed on weight as heavier cars will tear up the road more

The heaviest EV, the Tesla Model X, currently weighs about 2,500kg the lightest to my knowledge is the 1,500kg Renault Zoe

So a tax rate of about €1/100kg for Evs and about €50/100kg ICE cars seems fair

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120682340#Comment_120682340

Again, all absolute rubbish. Roads are designed to take the added weight of EVs and cars will just get heavier and heavier in the future anyway with so much safety equipment included. It irritates me when people have a go at others for driving big cars. I need a big car for my three small kids. I tried an Audi A1 and it didn't work.

elperello

Has anyone got figures for the extra wear and tear on road surfaces caused by one size of car over another.

I know HGVs and tractors probably cause damage but I'm not sure 500 kg one way or the other is a problem.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120682686#Comment_120682686

If you take a close look at my figures I'm suggesting a model x road tax would cost €25 a year, €95 less than current rates

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120682791#Comment_120682791

And a Zoe would be €15

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120683035#Comment_120683035

So your advocating a revised tax system that better reflects the impact heavy EVs have on roads that turns out to be significantly cheaper than the current system which ignores weight completely.

the_amazing_raisin

3 steps to vehicle tax success:

Fixed road tax by vehicle category, skew it so 7 seater people carriers are cheaper than 5 seater SUVs to stop punishing bigger families

LPT pays for road maintenance by the council with some subsidies for rural areas from the government. Bit harsh I know but if you're choosing to buy a house in rural Mayo then you'll need to accept that public services will cost more per household

Per exit tolling on motorways and some major national roads to ensure motorway users are fairly charged, no more driving from Bray to Lucan without paying anything. Design it to make shorter journeys cost more per kilometre than longer ones. It means that major roads are funded sustainably by the people who use them and not by the taxpayers who may never use them

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120683865#Comment_120683865

I'm glad you understand my thinking, I accept you might not agree to it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120683954#Comment_120683954

In 2022 the 10 toll booths across our country collected less than €350m, we've 2.2m cars in the country so it's the equivalent of €160 per car... That was collections, not profits after you pay wages, banking charges etc etc

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120684615#Comment_120684615

Which is why you need the tolls to be based on the number of exits you passed. They've a similar system in France, you tag on when your enter the motorway (or get a paper ticket). When you exit your toll is calculated and you pay

It's a fairer system IMO as it more evenly distributes the tolls and stops people dodging them. It also discourages people from using the motorway for a single exit which is not what it's designed for

I admit it'd be neater if roads were paid for through taxes, but the problem is that makes it very susceptible to political interference. For example look at how the NHS has been hollowed out to a shell of its former self by the Tories

So I think it's better if infrastructure has a way to fund itself from the people using it.

It could also be said that people in Donegal or Kerry would probably prefer if their taxes went to maintaining roads in their area rather than widening the N11. That's why I think council roads should be funded by the LPT mainly to ensure the council has some financial independence. Again there'd probably need to be some government support otherwise counties like Mayo would never be able to support their road network, but mainly the council should be able to pay for the upkeep of their roads

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120682791#Comment_120682791

what appears to be the generally accepted calculation in engineering circles, is that the damage is proportional to something between the third and fourth power of the vehicle's weight.

so doubling the vehicle weight does not cause double the damage, it'd be somewhere between 8 and 16 times the damage.

and the difference between a two ton car and a loaded dump truck weighing 50 tons would be a factor of over 15,000.

Busman Paddy Lasty

4th power. A knowledgeable poster has posted calculations a couple of times. HGVs and farm machinery cause thousands of times wear and tear on roads.

Also with regards to motorway charging, the M50 toll was for crossing the "toll bridge" as it was known back in the day when barriers were on it. Personally prefer people using the M50 for one or two exits as it takes traffic away from residential roads which should be amended to promote safe cycling and more pedestrian space.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120684615#Comment_120684615

You're right, I don't agree with introducing a bespoke new charging by weight based system and then propose that the heaviest cars in each class pay 2% of the tax levied on lighter cars

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120685220#Comment_120685220

Always annoying to see perfectly surfaced rural roads torn to shreds by the increasingly massive silage trailers exiting fields especially during a warm spell of weather.

Would agree with not targeting single exit motorway / bypass use as it will just increase congestion on less capable routes. Compared to France our motorways are largely bypasses and shouldn't be tolled at all

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120685085#Comment_120685085

Which is why you need the tolls to be based on the number of exits you passed.

Yeah I wouldn't be against tolls on how much of a road is used like France. There would need to be a reduction in motor tax as well though to make up for that.

In the case of the M50 there are 16 exits (1-17, no 8) and a charge of €2.10/2.70/3.20 so if instead you charged 13/17/20c per exit it would be much fairer and less incentive for cars to duck out and avoid the toll bridge

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120685102#Comment_120685102

Thanks for the info.

Currently an agricultural tractor is taxed at €102 pa and the highest rate for a HGV is €900.

Its probably unlikely a tax regime that reflects the actual damage to road surfaces will be introduced.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120686168#Comment_120686168

Reckon you nailed it there, tax is a great way to make money for the government but it's also very vulnerable to political interference.

For example say <insert party name> said that tractors should pay for the road damage they cause and was going to increase road tax to €900 for a tractor. I'd be surprised if they got a single vote in rural areas

Flip it over and imagine a party which said they'd cut road tax in half for agricultural vehicles, all of a sudden they'll be popular among the Irish Farmers Association and similar groups

I'm not by any means saying this is necessarily wrong, taxes have been used for political goals as well as just raising money. But just don't expect any system of taxation to always make logical sense

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120685328#Comment_120685328

I remember one Local Authority in Northern Ireland used to tar into the gateway's to prevent damage to the road surface by exiting tractors.

The idea was that they would degrade the surface in the gateway but not the actual roadway.

I don't know if they still do it but it worked.

zg3409

In terms of tolling per exit on the m50 there is already plans happening and overhead gantries being installed the past few years. It may never happen but it's one of the reasons I moved home to be closer to work.

I wanted to avoid the m50 on my daily commute, partly to eliminate the toll cost and EV energy cost, but also the potential of it costing 2 euro per junction or 20 euro per length. This is relatively easy to implement and will probably happen in the next 20 years.

In terms of weight as said road damage is based on HGVs, cars have little impact. Planners design roads around the number of HGVs per day, not cars. I do agree we need to move away from a fixed one price EV motor tax. It seems silly a 30k and a 100k euro EV have same annual motor tax.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120686216#Comment_120686216

Taking into account the figures for damage done by tractors and trucks it would be hard to make the case for taxing cars on that basis when they do so little damage comparatively.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120687150#Comment_120687150

You're correct of course but the current CO2 based motor taxes is equally unfair to private cars which are far 'cleaner' that said tractors and trucks as well as commercial vehicles in general.

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120683954#Comment_120683954

I'm presuming you live in the Pale? Charging culchies who travel to Dublin for work with Tolls wouldn't go down very well. Built us a proper train network first, please.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690091#Comment_120690091

Surely you'd already be paying the tolls? Pretty much every motorway into Dublin has a toll booth at some point. Really it's just a case of which side of the booth you live on

And you'd have to deal with less traffic from the scabby jackeens taking up space on the M50 for one exit 😉

I do agree that more is needed, including proper public transport. But the question of the thread is how best to replace the lost tax revenue from ICE cars

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690222#Comment_120690222

I travel from Wexford to Dublin so there are no tolls. This isn't Switzerland so it's not like I can take a train and get to work in less than 2 hours. The buses are the same and cost more than a car ride. People from outside of Dublin use their cars because they have to.

Since the pandemic, the m50 and m11 are fine to travel on. Traffic is manageable so no need to penalize people for using it.

Living in the country is great but one of the biggest disadvantages in Ireland is the lack of jobs in these towns and poor public transport to Dublin. If they introduced a toll on the M11 there would be an uprising.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120691089#Comment_120691089

There's currently a tax of 53.212c/l of petrol. A Qashqai using 9l to cover 100km gives an approximate tax rate of 4.78c/km. What mechanism do you think should be put in place to account for the scenario where every vehicle is electrified instead? For an average commuter that's about €800 per year in tax, would you prefer instead that every person is given a €800 tax increase on their income.

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120681888#Comment_120681888

Do all these people you mentioned need to buy a brand new car? No I didn't think so.

So you'd prefer pedestrians, cyclists and public transport users to subsidise Range Rovers instead? Seems fair.

There are plenty of EV owners with no home charging. Average mileage in Ireland is only around 14500km per year, pretty much any new EV would need to be charged less than once a week to do this driving.

Plenty of EVs available that can tow, how many people tow regularly? How many long distances or >2000kg? A tiny minority.

How many families have 4 or more kids, 5% in the last census, I'd be surprised if it's gone up in the current one. There are 7 seater EV options available and more coming soon.

EV sales are increasing but there are way too many dino burners being bought that'll be pumping out CO2 for decades to come. Do nothing is a cop out.

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120691234#Comment_120691234

By the time every vehicle is electrified, most houses in this country will have solar panels on the roof. It's likely anything sold back to the grid will be taxed as it's essentially household income.

Why not draw a new line in the sand with motor taxation in the future. Every household becomes more self sufficient, less reliant on fossil fuels, consumes less and works more from home.

You can't just make up ways to tax people. If they put tolls all over the country, people will just tell their employer, "I'm sorry but I have a right to work from home and here's another €10 per day reason why." Another car off the road.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120696792#Comment_120696792

If you lose €800 in tax from each motorist, what way do you propose to replace that and maintain the same level of government provided services?

People are already paying a per km road usage tax its just currently applied via fuel duty and doesn't work for electrified vehicles due to examples like home solar generation.