There's currently a tax of 53.212c/l of petrol. A Qashqai using 9l to cover 100km gives an approximate tax rate of 4.78c/km. What mechanism do you think should be put in place to account for the scenario where every vehicle is electrified instead? For an average commuter that's about €800 per year in tax, would you prefer instead that every person is given a €800 tax increase on their income.
I travel from Wexford to Dublin so there are no tolls. This isn't Switzerland so it's not like I can take a train and get to work in less than 2 hours. The buses are the same and cost more than a car ride. People from outside of Dublin use their cars because they have to.
Since the pandemic, the m50 and m11 are fine to travel on. Traffic is manageable so no need to penalize people for using it.
Living in the country is great but one of the biggest disadvantages in Ireland is the lack of jobs in these towns and poor public transport to Dublin. If they introduced a toll on the M11 there would be an uprising.
Surely you'd already be paying the tolls? Pretty much every motorway into Dublin has a toll booth at some point. Really it's just a case of which side of the booth you live on
And you'd have to deal with less traffic from the scabby jackeens taking up space on the M50 for one exit 😉
I do agree that more is needed, including proper public transport. But the question of the thread is how best to replace the lost tax revenue from ICE cars
I'm presuming you live in the Pale? Charging culchies who travel to Dublin for work with Tolls wouldn't go down very well. Built us a proper train network first, please.
You're correct of course but the current CO2 based motor taxes is equally unfair to private cars which are far 'cleaner' that said tractors and trucks as well as commercial vehicles in general.
Taking into account the figures for damage done by tractors and trucks it would be hard to make the case for taxing cars on that basis when they do so little damage comparatively.
In terms of tolling per exit on the m50 there is already plans happening and overhead gantries being installed the past few years. It may never happen but it's one of the reasons I moved home to be closer to work.
I wanted to avoid the m50 on my daily commute, partly to eliminate the toll cost and EV energy cost, but also the potential of it costing 2 euro per junction or 20 euro per length. This is relatively easy to implement and will probably happen in the next 20 years.
In terms of weight as said road damage is based on HGVs, cars have little impact. Planners design roads around the number of HGVs per day, not cars. I do agree we need to move away from a fixed one price EV motor tax. It seems silly a 30k and a 100k euro EV have same annual motor tax.
I remember one Local Authority in Northern Ireland used to tar into the gateway's to prevent damage to the road surface by exiting tractors.
The idea was that they would degrade the surface in the gateway but not the actual roadway.
I don't know if they still do it but it worked.
Reckon you nailed it there, tax is a great way to make money for the government but it's also very vulnerable to political interference.
For example say <insert party name> said that tractors should pay for the road damage they cause and was going to increase road tax to €900 for a tractor. I'd be surprised if they got a single vote in rural areas
Flip it over and imagine a party which said they'd cut road tax in half for agricultural vehicles, all of a sudden they'll be popular among the Irish Farmers Association and similar groups
I'm not by any means saying this is necessarily wrong, taxes have been used for political goals as well as just raising money. But just don't expect any system of taxation to always make logical sense
Thanks for the info.
Currently an agricultural tractor is taxed at €102 pa and the highest rate for a HGV is €900.
Its probably unlikely a tax regime that reflects the actual damage to road surfaces will be introduced.
Which is why you need the tolls to be based on the number of exits you passed.
Yeah I wouldn't be against tolls on how much of a road is used like France. There would need to be a reduction in motor tax as well though to make up for that.
In the case of the M50 there are 16 exits (1-17, no 8) and a charge of €2.10/2.70/3.20 so if instead you charged 13/17/20c per exit it would be much fairer and less incentive for cars to duck out and avoid the toll bridge
Always annoying to see perfectly surfaced rural roads torn to shreds by the increasingly massive silage trailers exiting fields especially during a warm spell of weather.
Would agree with not targeting single exit motorway / bypass use as it will just increase congestion on less capable routes. Compared to France our motorways are largely bypasses and shouldn't be tolled at all
You're right, I don't agree with introducing a bespoke new charging by weight based system and then propose that the heaviest cars in each class pay 2% of the tax levied on lighter cars
4th power. A knowledgeable poster has posted calculations a couple of times. HGVs and farm machinery cause thousands of times wear and tear on roads.
Also with regards to motorway charging, the M50 toll was for crossing the "toll bridge" as it was known back in the day when barriers were on it. Personally prefer people using the M50 for one or two exits as it takes traffic away from residential roads which should be amended to promote safe cycling and more pedestrian space.
what appears to be the generally accepted calculation in engineering circles, is that the damage is proportional to something between the third and fourth power of the vehicle's weight.
so doubling the vehicle weight does not cause double the damage, it'd be somewhere between 8 and 16 times the damage.
and the difference between a two ton car and a loaded dump truck weighing 50 tons would be a factor of over 15,000.
Which is why you need the tolls to be based on the number of exits you passed. They've a similar system in France, you tag on when your enter the motorway (or get a paper ticket). When you exit your toll is calculated and you pay
It's a fairer system IMO as it more evenly distributes the tolls and stops people dodging them. It also discourages people from using the motorway for a single exit which is not what it's designed for
I admit it'd be neater if roads were paid for through taxes, but the problem is that makes it very susceptible to political interference. For example look at how the NHS has been hollowed out to a shell of its former self by the Tories
So I think it's better if infrastructure has a way to fund itself from the people using it.
It could also be said that people in Donegal or Kerry would probably prefer if their taxes went to maintaining roads in their area rather than widening the N11. That's why I think council roads should be funded by the LPT mainly to ensure the council has some financial independence. Again there'd probably need to be some government support otherwise counties like Mayo would never be able to support their road network, but mainly the council should be able to pay for the upkeep of their roads
I'm glad you understand my thinking, I accept you might not agree to it
In 2022 the 10 toll booths across our country collected less than €350m, we've 2.2m cars in the country so it's the equivalent of €160 per car... That was collections, not profits after you pay wages, banking charges etc etc
3 steps to vehicle tax success:
Fixed road tax by vehicle category, skew it so 7 seater people carriers are cheaper than 5 seater SUVs to stop punishing bigger families
LPT pays for road maintenance by the council with some subsidies for rural areas from the government. Bit harsh I know but if you're choosing to buy a house in rural Mayo then you'll need to accept that public services will cost more per household
Per exit tolling on motorways and some major national roads to ensure motorway users are fairly charged, no more driving from Bray to Lucan without paying anything. Design it to make shorter journeys cost more per kilometre than longer ones. It means that major roads are funded sustainably by the people who use them and not by the taxpayers who may never use them
So your advocating a revised tax system that better reflects the impact heavy EVs have on roads that turns out to be significantly cheaper than the current system which ignores weight completely.
If you take a close look at my figures I'm suggesting a model x road tax would cost €25 a year, €95 less than current rates
And a Zoe would be €15
Has anyone got figures for the extra wear and tear on road surfaces caused by one size of car over another.
I know HGVs and tractors probably cause damage but I'm not sure 500 kg one way or the other is a problem.
Again, all absolute rubbish. Roads are designed to take the added weight of EVs and cars will just get heavier and heavier in the future anyway with so much safety equipment included. It irritates me when people have a go at others for driving big cars. I need a big car for my three small kids. I tried an Audi A1 and it didn't work.
EV's and other cars should be taxed on weight as heavier cars will tear up the road more
The heaviest EV, the Tesla Model X, currently weighs about 2,500kg the lightest to my knowledge is the 1,500kg Renault Zoe
So a tax rate of about €1/100kg for Evs and about €50/100kg ICE cars seems fair
Exactly easiest way to tax EVs in the short term is to apply a reasonable motor tax rate, say €500 per year, and be done with it. Still very cheap to run compared to ICEs
So basically fcuk those who need a 7 seater or have no home charging or who tow regularly. Smacks of an I'm alright Jack proposal. EVs are being subsidised by the tax payer and are cheap to run for those who can home charge, especially if they have capacity to install solar. EV sales are already increasing substantially yoy, why not leave it at that for the time being, at least until the EV market has matured and a broader range of EVs are both available and affordable. Why do some always feel the need to put the jack boot in?
Rubbish. I have solar panels so I shouldn't be taxed on energy I produce myself.
We already have one of the highest registration taxes in the world. A lot of cars are already taxed at 40%. Increasing it further would be ridiculous.
And in fact it would put pretty much every used car dealer in the country out of business overnight.
The UK are doing just fine with the switch to electric whilst maintaining 0% VRT on all cars.
Pretty much impossible to tag an electron as going to a particular destination and doesn't address the fact that a person charging using their own solar power then stops paying for road maintenance.
Find it madness this drive to electrify everything, yet there are concerns about electricity production(well when it's actually needed) and lots of places are removing nuclear...it just makes zero sense
Should be no motor tax
It should be on the fuel and electric, you drive more, you pay more
They need to get smart meters in everywhere and distinguish between general electric usage and car usage, which should be pretty easy as they cars take over 5kW per hour for a sustained amount of time.
Adding 7c per kW and 20c per litre would be my target, use that for roads
