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Exploitation and young workers



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,489 ✭✭✭✭ Mrs OBumble

    Anything legal that gets the job done quicker is justifiable, and good business practise.

    The company SHOULD be paying for all hours worked. And if they were, then you can guarantee that they would be very sharp about supervising a workforce of youngsters hard, and making sure that not a minute extra is wasted on non-revenue generating work like clean-up.

    Be careful what you wish for.

    And don't project the attitudes of older people working on boards onto young people who have very different body-clocks.

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,008 ✭✭✭ Jim_Hodge

    How is not paying for hours done legal? And I'm far from projecting. Been there, done that.

  • Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭ Killed

    There's always a certain amount of responsibility that falls on the employees to stand up for themselves. Make sure the WRC are aware of the issue so they can do a spot check after clocking out time. They do night time visits to premises.

  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 8,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Jim2007

    The OP's son is a man fully entitled to manage his own affairs without any interfering in them, unless they are asked.

    One can only assume:

    • You don't have adult children and don't understand the tight rope parents have to walk in order to have a good relationship with grown up kids.
    • You have stuck you nose in where it was not wanted and your kids are doing a good job of managing you to the point that you actually think you know what is going on
    • You just don't know

  • Registered Users Posts: 24,489 ✭✭✭✭ Mrs OBumble

    It's not. I never said it was. But there can be swings and roundabouts which apply, especially on nights when the cleanup is faster than one hour.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,963 ✭✭✭ markpb

    If staff want to relax, have a drink and clean at their leisure, that's fine but it should be their choice. Telling everyone that they must clock out but keep working is illegal.

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,762 Mod ✭✭✭✭ GoldFour4

    Would agree to the extent but think ringing the business is just causing the son more hassle for him. That's something he should be doing himself.

  • Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,080 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Hellrazer

    Last person that complained got ZERO hours rostered and ended up leaving.

    My young lad is terrified of loosing his job if he complains. Someone mentioned earlier what his thoughts were on and they are the same as mine - its disgraceful and illegal but anyone that complains finds themselves either rostered for no hours or is let go.

  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 8,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Jim2007

    Well then the only practical solution is to keep his head down and look for a new job before he makes any complaints, I'm guessing he can't afford to be without a cashflow.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭ Breezy_

    Didn't varadkar do a great job the last 2 years.

    Oooooooh Ireland. Where you'll work for free or be replaced by someone that will.

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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 8,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Jim2007

    Irrelevant go get your jollies trolling somewhere else.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,555 ✭✭✭ FishOnABike

    Best thing he can do, if he can, is make note of all the unpaid extra hours. Get a job somewhere else - I don' t know if he'll find one where as handy as ten minutes away. Then report the previous employer, looking for full back pay.

    Back pay for him, colleagues and fines for the company might focus their mind on operating within the law in future.

    So called 'respectable' business owners who profit from illegally exploiting their workforce really annoys me. They'd be among the first to complain about dishonesty if staff decided to take the value of their unpaid work in stock.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭ Breezy_

    Now you, tell me how the relevant minister, who acknowledged that this happens when he announced the 3 lousy sick days back around May, and then did nothing, is trolling.

    Answer now. Or please disappear like a good lad.

  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 8,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Jim2007

  • Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭ RetroEncabulator

    I'm aware of situations like going back over a very long time. I remember, for example, a French friend of mine worked in a restaurant in a fairly bustling Irish suburban location probably 15 years ago at this stage. She didn't get paid for hours worked, similar kind of b/s explanations - extra hours here there and everywhere being worked without pay.

    She demanded her pay and they just fired her. She went home with the impression that Ireland's the wild west when it comes to employment law.

    It ended up in a huge stand up row in the middle of the restaurant floor in front of customers. She just packed up and went back to France and I don't think she's actually ever been back to Ireland again. Left with a really dismal impression of the place.

    I'd similar crap when I was teaching English in Spain years ago. An employer hired me, promised an hourly rate which seemed reasonable, but then classes were running twice as long as I was being paid for, were in remote locations like in businesses on industrial estates and I was expected to pay my own transport (often taxi) to get there and claim expenses which were never paid.

    Loads of chaos - was running at a loss some weeks and had couldn't pay my rent / buy food, so I just quit one afternoon, without even bothering to give notice - packed up and went home. Told him where to go when he started calling me and asking where I was etc.

    There are plenty of people out there who'll abuse students and younger workers' enthusiasm. What's worse is they'll gaslight you and make out they're doing you a favour or they're being your friend. All they care about is their bottom line.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭ Breezy_

    Very easy fix to all this. 25% fine of yearly profits if caught, given to staff. Boom. It'll never happen again, anywhere, ever.

  • Registered Users Posts: 16,549 ✭✭✭✭ bucketybuck

    Again, how exactly are you helping matters then?

    If he complains he gets pushed out, but if mammy and daddy cause a scene everything will be just fine?

    Do you know how such children get perceived in the workplace after mammy comes in to fight their battles for them? All you'll do is emasculate him.

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,854 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Nody


    @Breezy_ do this forum a favor and don't post in it again unless you can actually contribute something for the OP; this is your one and only warning.

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 20,477 CMod ✭✭✭✭ amdublin

    About 20 years ago I worked in a bank, hours were 9-5 (paid). Actually, we closed at 5 and balanced up our cash and left at 5.30.

    New starter in her early 20's. 5.05pm on her first day, her dad rang the bank and told the bank manager that he was to send her home. Which he did. She looked mortified. Must have had it out with her dad when she went home because she stayed til 5.30 from then onwards

    Looking back on it (a) her dad was actually right - none of us should have stayed after 5 as we were not getting paid. (b) I'd be mortified if my dad did that. (c) I wish he just gave her some advice, and which she could have shared with us all in the branch. None of us should have stayed - we should have insisted they pay us for that every 2.5 hours every week

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 20,477 CMod ✭✭✭✭ amdublin

    Nope. I treat adult children like adults. By all means I give my input and advice (as I would to any other adult) but I don't get involved to the extent you are getting involved. Why can't your son just report it himself? Why does mammy or daddy need to do it (not sure which you are!). How long will you continue to do things for your adult child?

  • Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,080 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Hellrazer

    He has reported it himself after me finding out the way to do it and then Ive showing him the procedure on how to do so. Hes also keeping a diary of the unpaid hours as someone mentioned on this thread in case hes asked for them. For some reason people think Im getting too involved. I have done exactly what you said Amdublin - advised him and shown him how to deal with this and pointed him in the direction of the WRC.

    Im not getting involved too deeply - after read ing a lot of posts here I took a lot of peoples advice and instead of me ringing his boss or contacting the wrc - I didnt I let him do it all with my help. He wants out of this place as soon as possible and has applied for a few positions around the area but its probably just the wrong time for employers to be taking on staff. And once hes left hes decided to make an official complaint backed up with his list of unpaid hours.

  • Registered Users Posts: 17,572 ✭✭✭✭ Idbatterim

    If I ever have kids, I wouldn't want then working this type of job for the appalling pay for the antisocial hours involved...

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭ rock22

    He cannot do anything on his own because, as other posters have said, he will be fired or get zero hours.

    He needs to organise his colleagues to all act together. The business cannot replace everyone.

    Did the WRC give an indication of when they might do an inspection?

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 22,987 Mod ✭✭✭✭ CramCycle

    I think you have done fine by your son OP, not much more to do though. Tell him to start looking for another job and as soon as he has it jump ship. Then go in and ask for his back pay, if he wants too, some people just want out and thats fine. If he does just want out or they refuse, hang them out to dry (but make sure there is proof somewhere). I worked in a pub for 12 years, this BS was never common and shouldn't be tolerated. It is different if you are salaried and not hourly paid, then extra hours are just part of the deal as you get security of pay, and occasionally get out early.

    At my age, I'd be going in and demanding it, if I was a young fella again, hard to say, I'd probably just walk and bad mouth the manager to all and sundry. Plenty of the bigger chain bars give their managers bonuses for keeping income up and wages down.

  • Registered Users Posts: 186 ✭✭ JimmyAlfonso

    Couldn't agree more and that's coming from a lad who's mother was a bit too nosey. First job it's impossible to know what's acceptable so he needs the input. Get CV out to Dunnes etc right away and have a job lined up, then on next night working just clock out and leave at 3am or don't clock out til the cleaning is done. If manager has a problem then your son will have the confidence he has a job lined up and can laugh at manager if he threatens to fire him in front of others and just quit on the spot. Manager will be desperate coming into the busiest 2 weeks and has a dodgy game to play not to upset a lot of staff. I am Sparticus :)

    Those hours are ridiculously unsociable, your son has his Sunday written off by not getting home til 6am. Not worth it for double time let alone no wages!

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,248 ✭✭✭ maninasia

    Great, parenting and keeping eyes out for your kids doesn't end at 18, I look back at myself and I was immature into my 20s , and had a lot to learn about the world.

    You are helping him understand how to deal with shady people, hopefully he will have a new job soon which will boost his confidence no end.

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 20,477 CMod ✭✭✭✭ amdublin

    I am sorry. I misread your post that you were doing all of the stuff i.e. you were ringing the WRC etc. I think you are doing what is right: advising him, but he needs to action this himself.

    Btw, also for what it is worth, I think the employers (the OWNERS) are doing a sh1tty thing. Pay your staff fairly for the work they are doing.

    I think he should line himself up with another job

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,308 ✭✭✭ Airyfairy12

    think this is just standard now as to how workers are treated! I used to work in retail and after doing a shift, we had to clock out before cleaning up the shop which could take up to 4 hours a night around Christmas. It's a stepping stone and gets you a reference for the next job, if you start complaining, you wont get a reference and you'll have difficulty getting another job or else be 'let go' with no real explanation. Its awful but just seems to be how most workers are treated now as union members are mostly in it for the money and do the bare minimum to actually support workers rights, they make a bit of noise every now and then so it looks like theyre doing a job but dont actually do anything proactive. That plus so many young - middle aged people are kind of forced to work in less than desirable circumstances just to get from A to B. Its awful but its the way of the world.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,963 ✭✭✭ markpb

    Every shop and cafe in Dublin (and probably elsewhere) is crying out for staff at the minute. The only reason employers get away with it is because most staff affected are young, don’t know any better and don’t want to rock the boat. In reality, they could walk out and into another job in a minute - no-one is looking for a reference for a general retail job.