Exploitation and young workers

Hellrazer

Looking for a bit of advice with something.

My young teenager (18) started working while in 3rd level for a well known group of pubs as a lounge person and also serving at the bar.

Now they work "7 to closing" or " 8 till closing" but Ive noticed a bit of a piss take from the establishment.

They are all asked to clock out at 3.00 am but then are asked to do "clean up"

Last weekend for example it was 5.30am when they got home - of course all of this is unpaid. Ive looked back at the last few months payslips and it seems to be a nice little earner for this pub.

Usually 2 hours clean up x 5 staff members = 10 hours unpaid per night.

How would I go about reporting this as its seriously getting on my nerves not to mention the illegality of it.

Allinall

When they clock out they should just go home.

What are the pub going to do?

Augme

Tell him to leave when he clocks out. Or else insist to be paid for the clean up. Its a good opportunity for your son to learn to speak him for himself, rather than relying on you to do it for him.

Pauliedragon

That's complete bullshit OP but unfortunately all too common in hospitality. I would start by keepng records of the clock out time vs finishing time. If you want to make an official complaint the WRC is your place but it's drawn out as the 1st thing they'll say is try to resolve with the employer. Paid by the hour you get paid until you finish it's black and white. I'd be getting out of there as fast as I could if there is anything else available in the area.

L1011

If you're hourly, you clock out when you finish work, not when the employer wants you to. There are tens of thousands of hospitality jobs available, they'll find another in a heartbeat.

Time to leave the job.

Jim_Hodge

I'd echo raising it with the owner and leave if it's not sorted. Any chance he's getting the clean up time off the books?

No shortage of that work available.

dotsman

How does it take 2 hours to clean up?

This is pretty standard in many pubs, but clean-up usual only takes circa 15 minutes and usually rewarded by a drink or two after.

JustJoe7240

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119993022#Comment_119993022

Worked in hospitality for years, It's not common.

To the OP: Tell him to find another job.

Pauliedragon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119993349#Comment_119993349

It's very common where I live and I'm in hospitality aswell.

Danzy

It's vital you don't get involved, you can offer advice, a pathway but no good will come from your involvement more than that

Flinty997

Hospitality are desperate for workers. But then take the proverbial. Agree with the others. Get another job.

Mrs OBumble

Last orders is at 2am. Pre-close has started before that, properly cleanup starts then, and really gets going at 2:30 once the punters have to leave (a mop bucket with strong bleach is good for encouraging 'em out).

Finished by 3am is a bit ambitious, but only a little.

It the staff are paid right til the minute they finish, either the manager has to hound them to get done, or they take the p*ss and take ages for more wages. Paying until a half-way intermediate time gives them an incentive to get done but allows for the fact that they might want to chill for a staff drink before cleaning, to have some craic while doing it or afterwards.

Hellrazer

Thanks for all the replies. My young lad is terrified to rock the boat so to speak in case they decide to get rid of him which is more than likely what will happen so he stays on to do this clean up thing despite me telling him to leave at his clock off time of 3.00am.

Last Saturday the manager on duty then decided to have a staff meeting at 4.30am - again unpaid and he didnt get home until almost 6.00 am.

Checked his pay slip today and he only got paid until 3.00 am. Same saturday just gone 5.45 getting home.

L1011-This place is close to both of us and is notorious for this practice. Jim hodge - to me it looks like all the cleaning is off the books - over the course of a weekend Thursday to Sunday they are saving another full time wage.

Edit - I misunderstood you. Nope definitely not getting paid off the books and neither are any of the other staff.

I know people are saying not to get involved but I hate seeing young people fucked around like this - Ive always treated the young apprentices I take on very fairly and have been doing that for over 20 years.

I was going to ring their HR department anonymously and basically tell them I was seeking a review of their clock ins through the WRC if the practice didnt stop which I believe is an option but wont amount to anything if the staff are being forced to clock off and work for free for 2 hours and those 2 hours arent documented. Or I could find out their insurance company and go down that road - theres a health and safety issue there regarding staff being on premises and not clocked in.

Its a **** thing to do to young people who like my lad are in their very first job while studying and Id love to be able to stop this dodgy practice.

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119993680#Comment_119993680

This is a huge place with multiple levels and a big beer garden - theres no way its being cleaned in an hour. Probably why they have this " clean up " time thats not paid - they realise how much it will cost them. It regularly takes the staff at least 1.5 to 2 hours from closing to finish cleaning up.

Strumms

It’s unpaid labour…. That ridiculous point as in it being an incentive to get the work done ? Haha… at that hour of the morning in every and any job, people don’t want to be hanging around, stretching work out, they want their home, some food and their bed.

delboythedub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119992916#Comment_119992916

when clocked out they are not allowed remain on premises due not being covered by insurance.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058275714/exploitation-and-young-workers

Just leave. Find a job somewhere else and leave. There are lots of jobs for teenagers. Dunnes are struggling to find staff. There’s no need for this. The pu owner is laughing really at your son and his parents who have so little self respect that they will allow their child to work for free. Agree though he has to think for himself, find another job himself or complain to the boss himself.

Hellrazer

He is going to leave but Id like to make the management aware of what they are up to.

Already contacted the WRC and you can report this stuff anonymously which Ive done - they are going get an inspection of their time clocks in the next few weeks but it doesnt really help the issue as these will only show that everyone has clocked off at 3.00 am and doesnt show that they worked later cleaning up.

The insurance angle is another one Im trying to cover - from what I gather the individual isnt covered for an accident while not clocked in.

amdublin

Cut the apron strings. Your son is 18 he should be dealing with himself:

Clock out and leave. Or stay clocked in until cleaning is finished. (Same thing really).

Hey, are you sure your son isn't clocking out when finished and just staying on socializing??? And, a 4am staff meeting???? Wtf.

Hellrazer

Nope hes definitely not socialising and I saw the email regarding the staff meeting at 4.00am.

Regarding teh staying clocked on until they are finished - the manager makes them clock off at 3.00 am or 2.00 am whatever and then they have to stay and clean while NOT clocked on - thats the biggest issue I have with it.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120005324#Comment_120005324

I expect you have discussed all this with your son, so the question is what does he think about all this? At the end of the day it's his life and if he were to loose the job, he may not thank you for your interference even if it is good intentioned. I guess it depends on what you want to get out of this...

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120006875#Comment_120006875

Indeed.

Similarly if the manager has to focus on getting the cleanup done as fast as possible, the staff may find that they lose the fun part of the evening and get only an extra 20 minutes pay.

bucketybuck

The best thing you can do for your son is treat him like the adult he is rather than some stupid child.

Checking his payslips, reading his emails, making complaints on his behalf, you are doing far more damage to him than working late in that bar ever will.

You are massively overstepping the line, give him advice but he needs to sort out his own problems not have some helicopter parent fight his battles.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120006909#Comment_120006909

How about the manager pays to get the cleanup done? You seem to see anything that gets the job done quicker as justifiable. As for all this fun you think staff have, or want, at that time it's a figment of your imagination for most.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120006909#Comment_120006909

I really could not care less about the business and the manager, I be more concerned about the type of relationship I want to have with my son. If you stick you nose in where it is not wanted the kids will soon fix the problem by excluding you and you'll get a filtered version of their live - more filtered that you might expect that is.

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120006909#Comment_120006909

The dont get paid for clean up time and are forced to clock off at 3.00 am. Thats the issue - if they were paid for it Id have no problem at all with it or if the option was there to leave at their clock out time but its not. They HAVE to clock off at 3.00am and they HAVE to stay for the clean up - last night he got home at 5.25am , clocked off at 3.00am but not paid from 3.00 to 5.10 am (its a 10 minute walk home)

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120006961#Comment_120006961

Regarding the payslips - I didnt check them. He said he didnt think he was getting paid the right amount of hours as in 8pm to 5am and asked me to look at them and its proven to be true - always 1.5 to 2 hours short of the clean up time.

The email he forwarded to me to show me how ridiculous it was.

I dont check his emails and only looked at the payslips when asked.

Maybe you think Im helicoptering but I wouldnt have considered myself like that. I have been heavily involved with unions in the past and also look after all the apprentice training. Ive seen 1st years getting treated badly , not being registered on time etc but I always prided myself on treating the young lads the way they should be treated and this just gets on my wick with my lad.

maninasia

Don't mind whatothers are saying, you are looking after your son's interests.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120007175#Comment_120007175

Anything legal that gets the job done quicker is justifiable, and good business practise.

The company SHOULD be paying for all hours worked. And if they were, then you can guarantee that they would be very sharp about supervising a workforce of youngsters hard, and making sure that not a minute extra is wasted on non-revenue generating work like clean-up.

Be careful what you wish for.

And don't project the attitudes of older people working on boards onto young people who have very different body-clocks.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009066#Comment_120009066

How is not paying for hours done legal? And I'm far from projecting. Been there, done that.

Killed

There's always a certain amount of responsibility that falls on the employees to stand up for themselves. Make sure the WRC are aware of the issue so they can do a spot check after clocking out time. They do night time visits to premises.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120007811#Comment_120007811

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120008620#Comment_120008620

The OP's son is a man fully entitled to manage his own affairs without any interfering in them, unless they are asked.

One can only assume:

• You don't have adult children and don't understand the tight rope parents have to walk in order to have a good relationship with grown up kids.
• You have stuck you nose in where it was not wanted and your kids are doing a good job of managing you to the point that you actually think you know what is going on
• You just don't know

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009208#Comment_120009208

It's not. I never said it was. But there can be swings and roundabouts which apply, especially on nights when the cleanup is faster than one hour.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119993680#Comment_119993680

If staff want to relax, have a drink and clean at their leisure, that's fine but it should be their choice. Telling everyone that they must clock out but keep working is illegal.

GoldFour4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120007811#Comment_120007811

Would agree to the extent but think ringing the business is just causing the son more hassle for him. That's something he should be doing himself.

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120014579#Comment_120014579

Last person that complained got ZERO hours rostered and ended up leaving.

My young lad is terrified of loosing his job if he complains. Someone mentioned earlier what his thoughts were on and they are the same as mine - its disgraceful and illegal but anyone that complains finds themselves either rostered for no hours or is let go.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120017023#Comment_120017023

Well then the only practical solution is to keep his head down and look for a new job before he makes any complaints, I'm guessing he can't afford to be without a cashflow.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018463#Comment_120018463

Irrelevant go get your jollies trolling somewhere else.

FishOnABike

Best thing he can do, if he can, is make note of all the unpaid extra hours. Get a job somewhere else - I don' t know if he'll find one where as handy as ten minutes away. Then report the previous employer, looking for full back pay.

Back pay for him, colleagues and fines for the company might focus their mind on operating within the law in future.

So called 'respectable' business owners who profit from illegally exploiting their workforce really annoys me. They'd be among the first to complain about dishonesty if staff decided to take the value of their unpaid work in stock.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018991#Comment_120018991

Still trying to get your jollies then…

I'm aware of situations like going back over a very long time. I remember, for example, a French friend of mine worked in a restaurant in a fairly bustling Irish suburban location probably 15 years ago at this stage. She didn't get paid for hours worked, similar kind of b/s explanations - extra hours here there and everywhere being worked without pay.

She demanded her pay and they just fired her. She went home with the impression that Ireland's the wild west when it comes to employment law.

It ended up in a huge stand up row in the middle of the restaurant floor in front of customers. She just packed up and went back to France and I don't think she's actually ever been back to Ireland again. Left with a really dismal impression of the place.

I'd similar crap when I was teaching English in Spain years ago. An employer hired me, promised an hourly rate which seemed reasonable, but then classes were running twice as long as I was being paid for, were in remote locations like in businesses on industrial estates and I was expected to pay my own transport (often taxi) to get there and claim expenses which were never paid.

Loads of chaos - was running at a loss some weeks and had couldn't pay my rent / buy food, so I just quit one afternoon, without even bothering to give notice - packed up and went home. Told him where to go when he started calling me and asking where I was etc.

There are plenty of people out there who'll abuse students and younger workers' enthusiasm. What's worse is they'll gaslight you and make out they're doing you a favour or they're being your friend. All they care about is their bottom line.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120017023#Comment_120017023

Again, how exactly are you helping matters then?

If he complains he gets pushed out, but if mammy and daddy cause a scene everything will be just fine?

Do you know how such children get perceived in the workplace after mammy comes in to fight their battles for them? All you'll do is emasculate him.

Nody

Mod:

@[Deleted User] do this forum a favor and don't post in it again unless you can actually contribute something for the OP; this is your one and only warning.

amdublin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019266#Comment_120019266

About 20 years ago I worked in a bank, hours were 9-5 (paid). Actually, we closed at 5 and balanced up our cash and left at 5.30.

New starter in her early 20's. 5.05pm on her first day, her dad rang the bank and told the bank manager that he was to send her home. Which he did. She looked mortified. Must have had it out with her dad when she went home because she stayed til 5.30 from then onwards

Looking back on it (a) her dad was actually right - none of us should have stayed after 5 as we were not getting paid. (b) I'd be mortified if my dad did that. (c) I wish he just gave her some advice, and which she could have shared with us all in the branch. None of us should have stayed - we should have insisted they pay us for that every 2.5 hours every week

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019266#Comment_120019266

Who said anything about mammy and daddy causing a scene - theres no scene being caused on my part. Ive already said it was reported anonymously and the WRC have said they take this kind of **** very seriously which is why they have an anonymous helpline and email to report - they know that employees will be fired for reporting a dodgy employer. The employer in question doesnt know its my son. All they`ll know is when the WRC give them a night time inspection and see who is on the premises and not clocked in. Then they`ll ask for an inspection of their clock ins and interview all staff.

Its all well and good people saying they wouldnt get involved - Id beg to differ if it was your son or daughter being treated this way by an unscrupulous employer that you would sit back and do nothing.

amdublin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019340#Comment_120019340

Nope. I treat adult children like adults. By all means I give my input and advice (as I would to any other adult) but I don't get involved to the extent you are getting involved. Why can't your son just report it himself? Why does mammy or daddy need to do it (not sure which you are!). How long will you continue to do things for your adult child?

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019609#Comment_120019609

He has reported it himself after me finding out the way to do it and then Ive showing him the procedure on how to do so. Hes also keeping a diary of the unpaid hours as someone mentioned on this thread in case hes asked for them. For some reason people think Im getting too involved. I have done exactly what you said Amdublin - advised him and shown him how to deal with this and pointed him in the direction of the WRC.

Im not getting involved too deeply - after read ing a lot of posts here I took a lot of peoples advice and instead of me ringing his boss or contacting the wrc - I didnt I let him do it all with my help. He wants out of this place as soon as possible and has applied for a few positions around the area but its probably just the wrong time for employers to be taking on staff. And once hes left hes decided to make an official complaint backed up with his list of unpaid hours.

Idbatterim

If I ever have kids, I wouldn't want then working this type of job for the appalling pay for the antisocial hours involved...

rock22

He cannot do anything on his own because, as other posters have said, he will be fired or get zero hours.

He needs to organise his colleagues to all act together. The business cannot replace everyone.

Did the WRC give an indication of when they might do an inspection?

CramCycle

I think you have done fine by your son OP, not much more to do though. Tell him to start looking for another job and as soon as he has it jump ship. Then go in and ask for his back pay, if he wants too, some people just want out and thats fine. If he does just want out or they refuse, hang them out to dry (but make sure there is proof somewhere). I worked in a pub for 12 years, this BS was never common and shouldn't be tolerated. It is different if you are salaried and not hourly paid, then extra hours are just part of the deal as you get security of pay, and occasionally get out early.

At my age, I'd be going in and demanding it, if I was a young fella again, hard to say, I'd probably just walk and bad mouth the manager to all and sundry. Plenty of the bigger chain bars give their managers bonuses for keeping income up and wages down.

JimmyAlfonso

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120007811#Comment_120007811

Couldn't agree more and that's coming from a lad who's mother was a bit too nosey. First job it's impossible to know what's acceptable so he needs the input. Get CV out to Dunnes etc right away and have a job lined up, then on next night working just clock out and leave at 3am or don't clock out til the cleaning is done. If manager has a problem then your son will have the confidence he has a job lined up and can laugh at manager if he threatens to fire him in front of others and just quit on the spot. Manager will be desperate coming into the busiest 2 weeks and has a dodgy game to play not to upset a lot of staff. I am Sparticus :)

Those hours are ridiculously unsociable, your son has his Sunday written off by not getting home til 6am. Not worth it for double time let alone no wages!