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Child Item

Exploitation and young workers

Hellrazer

Looking for a bit of advice with something.

My young teenager (18) started working while in 3rd level for a well known group of pubs as a lounge person and also serving at the bar.

Now they work "7 to closing" or " 8 till closing" but Ive noticed a bit of a piss take from the establishment.

They are all asked to clock out at 3.00 am but then are asked to do "clean up"

Last weekend for example it was 5.30am when they got home - of course all of this is unpaid. Ive looked back at the last few months payslips and it seems to be a nice little earner for this pub.

Usually 2 hours clean up x 5 staff members = 10 hours unpaid per night.

How would I go about reporting this as its seriously getting on my nerves not to mention the illegality of it.

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Alonzo Mosley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120007811#Comment_120007811

100% .... If my son was getting screwed I certainly wouldn't stand idly by and tell him to fight his own battles.

sura28

The best for him would be to leave and bring a claim to the WRC.

tell him to keep notes of his hours worked every day and also copy of any emails about after hours meetings, etc.

Other thing is that his pay is probably under the minimum wage for the hours actually worked so if that’s the case he should include this in his complaint to the WRC. He has 6 months to raise the claim after the last incident so make sure he lodges the claim within this timeframe.

Tell him to check his contract to see the hours of work and hourly rate. To keep his payslips and all the notes and documents he can gather to present as proof.

Hopefully he’ll be able to find a better job soon.

He can contact the Citizens advice center for further advice.

markpb

Every shop and cafe in Dublin (and probably elsewhere) is crying out for staff at the minute. The only reason employers get away with it is because most staff affected are young, don’t know any better and don’t want to rock the boat. In reality, they could walk out and into another job in a minute - no-one is looking for a reference for a general retail job.

Airyfairy12

think this is just standard now as to how workers are treated! I used to work in retail and after doing a shift, we had to clock out before cleaning up the shop which could take up to 4 hours a night around Christmas. It's a stepping stone and gets you a reference for the next job, if you start complaining, you wont get a reference and you'll have difficulty getting another job or else be 'let go' with no real explanation. Its awful but just seems to be how most workers are treated now as union members are mostly in it for the money and do the bare minimum to actually support workers rights, they make a bit of noise every now and then so it looks like theyre doing a job but dont actually do anything proactive. That plus so many young - middle aged people are kind of forced to work in less than desirable circumstances just to get from A to B. Its awful but its the way of the world.

amdublin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120020565#Comment_120020565

I am sorry. I misread your post that you were doing all of the stuff i.e. you were ringing the WRC etc. I think you are doing what is right: advising him, but he needs to action this himself.

Btw, also for what it is worth, I think the employers (the OWNERS) are doing a sh1tty thing. Pay your staff fairly for the work they are doing.

I think he should line himself up with another job

maninasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120020849#Comment_120020849

Great, parenting and keeping eyes out for your kids doesn't end at 18, I look back at myself and I was immature into my 20s , and had a lot to learn about the world.

You are helping him understand how to deal with shady people, hopefully he will have a new job soon which will boost his confidence no end.

JimmyAlfonso

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120007811#Comment_120007811

Couldn't agree more and that's coming from a lad who's mother was a bit too nosey. First job it's impossible to know what's acceptable so he needs the input. Get CV out to Dunnes etc right away and have a job lined up, then on next night working just clock out and leave at 3am or don't clock out til the cleaning is done. If manager has a problem then your son will have the confidence he has a job lined up and can laugh at manager if he threatens to fire him in front of others and just quit on the spot. Manager will be desperate coming into the busiest 2 weeks and has a dodgy game to play not to upset a lot of staff. I am Sparticus :)

Those hours are ridiculously unsociable, your son has his Sunday written off by not getting home til 6am. Not worth it for double time let alone no wages!

CramCycle

I think you have done fine by your son OP, not much more to do though. Tell him to start looking for another job and as soon as he has it jump ship. Then go in and ask for his back pay, if he wants too, some people just want out and thats fine. If he does just want out or they refuse, hang them out to dry (but make sure there is proof somewhere). I worked in a pub for 12 years, this BS was never common and shouldn't be tolerated. It is different if you are salaried and not hourly paid, then extra hours are just part of the deal as you get security of pay, and occasionally get out early.

At my age, I'd be going in and demanding it, if I was a young fella again, hard to say, I'd probably just walk and bad mouth the manager to all and sundry. Plenty of the bigger chain bars give their managers bonuses for keeping income up and wages down.

rock22

He cannot do anything on his own because, as other posters have said, he will be fired or get zero hours.

He needs to organise his colleagues to all act together. The business cannot replace everyone.

Did the WRC give an indication of when they might do an inspection?

Idbatterim

If I ever have kids, I wouldn't want then working this type of job for the appalling pay for the antisocial hours involved...

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019609#Comment_120019609

He has reported it himself after me finding out the way to do it and then Ive showing him the procedure on how to do so. Hes also keeping a diary of the unpaid hours as someone mentioned on this thread in case hes asked for them. For some reason people think Im getting too involved. I have done exactly what you said Amdublin - advised him and shown him how to deal with this and pointed him in the direction of the WRC.

Im not getting involved too deeply - after read ing a lot of posts here I took a lot of peoples advice and instead of me ringing his boss or contacting the wrc - I didnt I let him do it all with my help. He wants out of this place as soon as possible and has applied for a few positions around the area but its probably just the wrong time for employers to be taking on staff. And once hes left hes decided to make an official complaint backed up with his list of unpaid hours.

amdublin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019340#Comment_120019340

Nope. I treat adult children like adults. By all means I give my input and advice (as I would to any other adult) but I don't get involved to the extent you are getting involved. Why can't your son just report it himself? Why does mammy or daddy need to do it (not sure which you are!). How long will you continue to do things for your adult child?

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019266#Comment_120019266

Who said anything about mammy and daddy causing a scene - theres no scene being caused on my part. Ive already said it was reported anonymously and the WRC have said they take this kind of **** very seriously which is why they have an anonymous helpline and email to report - they know that employees will be fired for reporting a dodgy employer. The employer in question doesnt know its my son. All they`ll know is when the WRC give them a night time inspection and see who is on the premises and not clocked in. Then they`ll ask for an inspection of their clock ins and interview all staff.

Its all well and good people saying they wouldnt get involved - Id beg to differ if it was your son or daughter being treated this way by an unscrupulous employer that you would sit back and do nothing.

amdublin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019266#Comment_120019266

About 20 years ago I worked in a bank, hours were 9-5 (paid). Actually, we closed at 5 and balanced up our cash and left at 5.30.

New starter in her early 20's. 5.05pm on her first day, her dad rang the bank and told the bank manager that he was to send her home. Which he did. She looked mortified. Must have had it out with her dad when she went home because she stayed til 5.30 from then onwards

Looking back on it (a) her dad was actually right - none of us should have stayed after 5 as we were not getting paid. (b) I'd be mortified if my dad did that. (c) I wish he just gave her some advice, and which she could have shared with us all in the branch. None of us should have stayed - we should have insisted they pay us for that every 2.5 hours every week

Nody

Mod:

@[Deleted User] do this forum a favor and don't post in it again unless you can actually contribute something for the OP; this is your one and only warning.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120017023#Comment_120017023

Again, how exactly are you helping matters then?

If he complains he gets pushed out, but if mammy and daddy cause a scene everything will be just fine?

Do you know how such children get perceived in the workplace after mammy comes in to fight their battles for them? All you'll do is emasculate him.

[Deleted User]

I'm aware of situations like going back over a very long time. I remember, for example, a French friend of mine worked in a restaurant in a fairly bustling Irish suburban location probably 15 years ago at this stage. She didn't get paid for hours worked, similar kind of b/s explanations - extra hours here there and everywhere being worked without pay.

She demanded her pay and they just fired her. She went home with the impression that Ireland's the wild west when it comes to employment law.

It ended up in a huge stand up row in the middle of the restaurant floor in front of customers. She just packed up and went back to France and I don't think she's actually ever been back to Ireland again. Left with a really dismal impression of the place.

I'd similar crap when I was teaching English in Spain years ago. An employer hired me, promised an hourly rate which seemed reasonable, but then classes were running twice as long as I was being paid for, were in remote locations like in businesses on industrial estates and I was expected to pay my own transport (often taxi) to get there and claim expenses which were never paid.

Loads of chaos - was running at a loss some weeks and had couldn't pay my rent / buy food, so I just quit one afternoon, without even bothering to give notice - packed up and went home. Told him where to go when he started calling me and asking where I was etc.

There are plenty of people out there who'll abuse students and younger workers' enthusiasm. What's worse is they'll gaslight you and make out they're doing you a favour or they're being your friend. All they care about is their bottom line.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018991#Comment_120018991

Still trying to get your jollies then…

FishOnABike

Best thing he can do, if he can, is make note of all the unpaid extra hours. Get a job somewhere else - I don' t know if he'll find one where as handy as ten minutes away. Then report the previous employer, looking for full back pay.

Back pay for him, colleagues and fines for the company might focus their mind on operating within the law in future.

So called 'respectable' business owners who profit from illegally exploiting their workforce really annoys me. They'd be among the first to complain about dishonesty if staff decided to take the value of their unpaid work in stock.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018463#Comment_120018463

Irrelevant go get your jollies trolling somewhere else.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120017023#Comment_120017023

Well then the only practical solution is to keep his head down and look for a new job before he makes any complaints, I'm guessing he can't afford to be without a cashflow.

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120014579#Comment_120014579

Last person that complained got ZERO hours rostered and ended up leaving.

My young lad is terrified of loosing his job if he complains. Someone mentioned earlier what his thoughts were on and they are the same as mine - its disgraceful and illegal but anyone that complains finds themselves either rostered for no hours or is let go.

GoldFour4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120007811#Comment_120007811

Would agree to the extent but think ringing the business is just causing the son more hassle for him. That's something he should be doing himself.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119993680#Comment_119993680

If staff want to relax, have a drink and clean at their leisure, that's fine but it should be their choice. Telling everyone that they must clock out but keep working is illegal.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009208#Comment_120009208

It's not. I never said it was. But there can be swings and roundabouts which apply, especially on nights when the cleanup is faster than one hour.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120007811#Comment_120007811

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120008620#Comment_120008620

The OP's son is a man fully entitled to manage his own affairs without any interfering in them, unless they are asked.

One can only assume:

You don't have adult children and don't understand the tight rope parents have to walk in order to have a good relationship with grown up kids.
You have stuck you nose in where it was not wanted and your kids are doing a good job of managing you to the point that you actually think you know what is going on
You just don't know

Killed

There's always a certain amount of responsibility that falls on the employees to stand up for themselves. Make sure the WRC are aware of the issue so they can do a spot check after clocking out time. They do night time visits to premises.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009066#Comment_120009066

How is not paying for hours done legal? And I'm far from projecting. Been there, done that.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120007175#Comment_120007175

Anything legal that gets the job done quicker is justifiable, and good business practise.

The company SHOULD be paying for all hours worked. And if they were, then you can guarantee that they would be very sharp about supervising a workforce of youngsters hard, and making sure that not a minute extra is wasted on non-revenue generating work like clean-up.

Be careful what you wish for.

And don't project the attitudes of older people working on boards onto young people who have very different body-clocks.

maninasia

Don't mind whatothers are saying, you are looking after your son's interests.