Qatar World Cup

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119877887#Comment_119877887

Bingo.

Hillmanhunter1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119877887#Comment_119877887

Can you cite a single example of anyone being killed in Qatar for being the "wrong" sexuality.

If you cannot I invite you to delete that post.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119877934#Comment_119877934

@Sleepy has no reason to delete the post, because he didn’t make a claim that anyone in Qatar has actually been killed for being homosexual, his point was that Qatari unlikely to have an issue with it, which is a fair point, because what we were discussing was the differences in moral standards -

Lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) people in Qatar face legal challenges not experienced by non-LGBT residents. Male homosexuality is illegal in Qatar, with a punishment of up to three years in prison and a fine and the possibility of death penalty for Muslims under sharia law; however, there are no known cases that the death penalty was enforced for homosexuality. There is also prevailing cultural mores which view homosexuality and cross-dressing negatively.[5] The Qatari government does not recognize same-sex marriage or civil partnerships, nor does it allow people in Qatar to campaign for LGBT rights.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Qatar

Whether Sleepy’s claim regarding Qatari attitudes to homosexuality is actually true or not, is a different matter entirely. I’d say it’ll be an eye-opener for the tourists going over to witness how friendly the men are towards each other 😂

Tombo2001

In defence of Qatar

(i) Its the first time ever the World Cup is in a muslim country. Muslims represent 25% of people on the planet.

(ii) Given that its the first time ever its in a muslim country - yes by all means discuss the Human Rights abuses (and there are many) - but why wasnt Russia held to the same standard when it was there, or Brazil, or South Africa, or the United States, or Argentina. The list goes on. Whats different about Qatar. (see point (i) cough cough).

(iii) A lot of the criticism is with European centric eyes. It will disrupt the season? Absolutely, in Europe (unless you play for the League of Ireland). Does it disrupt the season in South East Asia? Or South America? Or Central America. Not so much.

(iv) The criticisms are for the most part about construction practices and the treatment of migrant workers. These need to be addressed, but they apply (ok this is pedantic) this is not a football issue - it relates to everything that is built in these countries. The world cup has done more than any other event could possibly do to highlight these migrant abuses and thats a good thing.

My own view is that there is a lot of hypocrisy and a lot of virtue signalling when it comes to the Qatar world cup.

Sleepy

@Hillmanhunter1 I can't but since it's a hereditary monarchy without a free press and it's ruling family couldn't possibly be ignorant of the condemnation they've received from the civilised world for having capital punishment for homesexual acts enshrined in their legal code so I'm not naieve enough to believe it hasn't happened, nor so focused on a single issue that their human rights abuses in other areas (such as their abuse of migrant workers to build white elephant football stadiums) merits deleting my post.

Can you provide a single logical argument to demonstrate how your choice to live and work in Qatar isn't supporting the regime to keep on commiting human rights abuses? If you cannot, I invite you to leave and find employment in another country where you won't be contributing to the suffering of others.

Hillmanhunter1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878023#Comment_119878023

Fair play to you for acknowledging that you can't cite evidence in defence of something that you claimed - and I mean that. Incidentally, though the death penalty is on the statute books, nobody seems to be able to cite an example of it being implemented - certainly not in living memory it seems. The ruling family, and the whole of Qatar society, is well aware of condemnation they've received from the "civilised" world, and like the 90% of the world's population that would not meet that criterion they are beginning to bristle at the ignorance, condescension, racism and neo-imperialism that are aligned with that view.

Qatar's amir questions motives behind 'unprecedented' World Cup criticism - Doha News | Qatar

You then invite me to provide "to demonstrate how your choice to live and work in Qatar isn't supporting the regime to keep on committing human rights abuses" as if, were I to fail to do so, we would have a nil-all draw, to use football parlance.

Firstly, I never said that I support the Qatari regime, and living and working here does not evidence support for the regime, no more than an immigrant to Ireland could be said to be supporting the current government of Ireland.

The human rights abuses in Qatar are no more or less than those inflicted by Ireland. The big difference I think is one of proximity. In Ireland you don't see the sweatshop workers who make your new shirt, not the children who mine the cobalt for your phone, nor the wage slaves who pick the coffee beans for your skinny latte. But in Qatar everybody lives cheek-by-jowl. The guy earning the minimum wage ($412 per month) sweeps the street where the guy in his Lamborghini parks. The degree of exploitation is the same, but proximity brings the contrast into focus.

Going back to that minimum wage ($412 per month), this is the wage that is earned by unskilled manual labourers. Anyone with skills will earn more - perhaps 2 to 3 times as much. Most of the unskilled manual labourers working in Qatar come from Bangladesh (Min. wage $78), India (Min wage $65), Pakistan (Min wage $91), Nepal (Min wage $116) and Sri Lanka (Min wage $34). There are no gangs of Qataris roaming the streets of Lahore or Khatmandu stealing men and selling them into bondage. These workers come to Qatar for a better life and (though there are bad apples in every barrel) that is what they get. They know exactly what conditions in Qatar are like - they've been coming here for generations. Conditions in the worst labour camps in Qatar are vastly better than those on the slums of Orangi or Dharavi.

So, someone coming to Qatar from SE Asia to work will earn far more than in Qatar than they can at home, and emigrant remittances (remember that from Irish economic history?) is feeding, clothing and educating people in their home countries, building homes and setting up businesses. Walk past any Western Union office on a Friday and you'll see a long queue of (mainly) Asians sending much needed money home.

But, you may say. the Qataris can afford to pay more and so should pay more.

Firstly, why would that standard apply to Qataris when it doesn't apply to any other employer anywhere? Employers everywhere pay whatever wages are required to secure the labour that they need, and not a penny more. At $412 per month the Qataris can get all of the (willing) labour that they need.

Secondly, suppose that somehow you could force the Qataris to raise the minimum wage. If they doubled it to about $850 a month it would be around the median global income per capita. Two things will happen immediately:

1. Demand for unskilled labour will drop dramatically because the cost of labour relative to the capital cost of machines has been altered. Instead of hiring 100 unskilled workers to do a job an employer may buy some machines and hire a few skilled machine operators. The huge number of manual workers in Qatar is partly due to the volume of development construction going on and partly because at the wages offered labour is often cheaper than the capital costs of machinery; and
2. For a salary of $850 per month the Qataris will get interest from workers in other countries with much better skills that the workers currently coming from SE Asia. They will get workers who can speak and read English and/or Arabic, and who can learn to perform more complicated tasks. The jobs formerly taken by workers from SE Asia will now be taken by workers from Iraq. Egypt and Syria.

So the upshot of forcing Qatar to raise wages will be to end opportunities for some of the poorest people in the world.

Afterwards, try going to Orabgi or Dharvavi and ask the empty-bellied children if they appreciate your efforts.

rob316

Anyone who hasn't watched "FIFA uncovered" on netflix, I really recommend it. You probably know most of the details but its good to learn it again before Sunday, astonishing levels of corruption.

EOQRTL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878181#Comment_119878181

Al Capone was a lightweight compared to FIFA.

McGrath5

Tifo Football are running a series of videos explaining how the World Cup ended up in Qatar, they're very good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITKOCKpEca8

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878014#Comment_119878014

Condemning death penalty laws for what are legal, private and personal lifestyle choices in the West and agitating to find out the truth of mass worker mistreatment and deaths is not virtue signalling, its legitimate agitation against unacceptable standards.

Admittedly though, it is all too little too late. What should have happened was that two or three years ago, some of the political arms of a number of the big footballing nations, England, France, Germany, Spain, America, Korea etc should have forbidden the sending of teams to Qatar without legislative and procedural reforms before a given deadline.

If it didn't happen, FIFA should have been forced to move the tournament to a Country with good infrastructure already in place, like Germany.

And before anyone gets on their high horse about the politicisation of football, don't bother. Football is the most political animal in the World. Gianni Infantino left Qatar this week to attend the G20 for 3 days. What reason would he have to do that unless FIFA felt they have something to gain from constant political interaction?

From the time that Yugoslavia got fecked out of the Euros in '92 for the Serbian genocide in the FYRs, football crossed the rubicon, just as the Olympics and all its sports have done before.

This tournament should not be in Qatar and Iran should have been thrown out 6 weeks ago and replaced with the team they beat in the playoffs, Iraq.

Hillmanhunter1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878201#Comment_119878201

Very good.

I can only see two episodes, but there's obviously more on the way.

retalivity

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878014#Comment_119878014

In fairness, there was uproar over Russia getting it as well, as they weren't long after a bloody campaign of murdering Chechens. It was telegraphed pretty early on that it would a vehicle for Putin to showcase himself and strengthen his position, which directly and indirectly has led us to where we are today with the war in Ukraine.

Richard Hillman

"England Fans" greet the team and Gareth Southgate to their hotel in Qatar

https://twitter.com/Lawton_Times/status/1592573479320457217?t=0WBd_ANpYVeI5qrPgbVeVQ&s=19

Looks like the Qatari's have paid them 😂

Larbre34

Virgin Atlantic, who operated today's England team flight, changed their policy for this flight only, of not allowing their Crew members to wear gender neutral uniforms, for fear of offending the Qataris and their regulations.

Now, apart from the fact that this policy, in practice, is merely to allow female pilots and stewards to wear trousers and I can't see how Qatar would have ant reason to object to that, I have to say **** those guys for being such pussies and rolling over for this stuff.

Imagine being a Western nation and trying to tell the staff of an Arabic based airline what they could wear??!!

Hillmanhunter1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878998#Comment_119878998

So the Qataris didn't object to (or probably know about) Virgin Airways uniforms, but Richard Branson couldn't pass up the opportunity for some free publicity.

Have I got that right?

Hillmanhunter1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878299#Comment_119878299

I appreciate that you think that you are fighting the good fight, but only because your ignorance of the world we live in is astounding.

The standards that you would have Qatar adopt are not universal by any means. They are ours (western democracies) and ours alone.

They are a function of our history and experiences, going back through two world wars, the age of revolutions, the age of enlightenment, the Reformation, the adoption of Christianity and before that the influence of Rome, Athens and Byzantium. This is the journey that we have taken, and it belongs to us alone. It does not belong to Africa, or Asia, or to the Arabs. The latter trace their history back to Babylon, not Byzantium.

Of the 8b people on earth the vast vast majority have no interest in the values (and especially the preaching) of western liberal democracies.

y0ssar1an22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878477#Comment_119878477

just uploaded

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3qXyUX9320&ab_channel=TifoFootball

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878649#Comment_119878649

Back in 2002 there were an awful lot of Japanese people in Tokyo going around in Irish shirts.

It was probably because Tokyo was a base for Irish fans.

I'm sure other cities had people wearing the shirts of the teams and fans that used them as a base.

But it was all organic and just the locals getting into the whole atmosphere of the event.

This is all very different.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119880178#Comment_119880178

They paid 1000s of fans to go and in exchange banned them from saying anything bad on social media.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119875013#Comment_119875013

And once they'd declared/claimed that the Qatar bid was supposedly better than the USA bid, they were heading for a whole world of pain.

And this is the whole thing.

Long before all this faux outrage over how migrant workers or LGBTQ people are treated, back when it was awarded, and in the run-up to awarding it anyone with half a brain could see that it was inferior to the USA bid.

Hillmanhunter1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119880193#Comment_119880193

Nonsense.

retalivity

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119880240#Comment_119880240

No, it's not

https://www.npr.org/2022/11/01/1133219043/qatar-world-cup-fans-paid-trips

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/england-fans-qatar-world-cup-28408125

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878299#Comment_119878299

Ok - am I right in saying that the same death penalty law has never been exercised in Qatar. Doesnt make it right obviously, but it is a consideration.

But my point then is where does it stop - what else will be ruled out? What has Germany done that the Muslim world finds objectionable. Does the Muslim world have the same rights of veto that you feel that you have?

There are anti-LGBT laws throughout the Muslim world. Are all Muslim countries therefore ineligible to host the World Cup therefore? And if they are ineligible to host it, then why are they allowed participate in it?

And if its ok for you or "the big Football nations" as you say it (the European ones) to decide on what grounds the hosts are in or out, then why cant China decide same, or Nigeria?

(Plus - Korea a big football nation? A nice token gesture but its league attendances are in line with League of Ireland, in a country with 50 million people. The Algerian League would have much bigger attendances).

Look - I am not trying to defend Qatar - I just dont think this is a balanced debate, and I think there is a lot of hypocrisy in the debate.

I agree with your point on politicisation of football, with the caveat that this applies mostly at the international football level - clear now that Qatar got the world cup because Sarkozy put pressure on Platini, having had a roundtable with the Qataris.

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878505#Comment_119878505

I really dont think there was uproar, anything like to the same extent we are seeing over Qatar.

Hotblack Desiato

Their country, their rules. They seem pretty happy with it.

🙄

That's a damn fool thing to say about a country with no free speech, no free press and extremely limited and unfree elections.

Royale with Cheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119880479#Comment_119880479

They didn't have to move the tournament to the middle of the European football season because it was too hot to play it in Russia. There were many non political reasons that the tournament should never have gone near Qatar that didn't apply to Russia, you don't have to know a single thing about human rights in Qatar to know it was a fúcking stupid and extremely corrupt decision to hold it there.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119880240#Comment_119880240

Its a well publicized fact.

Buster197456

This Qatar world cup is a farce. It has been proven to been bought. The head of usa fifa or someone high up was getting so much bribes he had a apartment in Manhattan for his dog. They got him the fbi and he went undercover that's how they got stuff on Blatter. Qatar have no football history. It will leave no legacy. They have a disgraceful human rights record. Their stance on lgtbq community is disgusting. Its illegal to be gay and you can be jailed. People saying it might help highlight etc. No these countries will never change. Muslim religion has their beliefs that they won't change.

The likes of Beckham who done a hugh amount for the gay community taking reported 100m of the is sickening. Also Robbie Williams supposed to be going and doing stuff during it. Black eye peas are doing stuff as well and they are all about human rights. Where is the love song should be changed to where is the cash. Sickening. Fat buy slim is supposedly going to doha after the world cup along with many others to do gigs. Cash is king.

Qatar should never have happened. Bit late the media highlighting it now. 4500 people died making the stadiums. I find the outrage now all a bit false. All jumping on the bandwagon. Uefa should have top the european teams not to go when Qatar got it. The fa la liga heads etc should refused to let their players play in this sham. But money talks. Oh lets fake outrage now on the eve of it going ahead. To little to late. Fifa are as corrupt as they get. It will continue. Reason is greed and cash. Beckham doesn't need the cash but it shows its all about money. I will watch it but world cups are summer tournaments and also should be held in places that share good values. It was bought but i'd bet it won't be the last one bought. Fifa will never change corrupt as they come.

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119880512#Comment_119880512

Its the World Cup - not the European Cup.

Why should the calendar of the World Cup be dictated by the European soccer season. Thats a bogus argument.

Yes it was obviously corrupt, but FIFA was corrupt for many many years - I just think there is a lot of hypocrisy and double standard around this Qatar debate.

Royale with Cheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119880554#Comment_119880554

Because that's where all the top leagues are and therefore all the top players. If you're good enough to play for your country the chances are you play somewhere in Europe.