Qatar World Cup

dartboardio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119877934#Comment_119877934

What on earth makes you think the Qataris don't follow through on their rules? It absolutely has happened ( not to westerners, I mean to the local people, the same way all rules only generally apply to locals/muslims, such as no unmarried couples sharing a hotel room etc)

You think because you haven't heard of local Qatari men being imprisoned/killed for being gay that it doesn't happen? Right, yeah because the Western media alwaaaaays reports on what happens in the middle east :V

I've seen obviously camp/gay looking Saudi/Arab men walking down the street being abused by both men and women before (in the middle east) ,for sure these rules are in fact active.

Royale with Cheese

https://twitter.com/lukeaaronmoore/status/1592494209353011202?t=G6MEC9B19pAyKVLpq7mcYg&s=19

Lol, the above was all called out on that podcast I linked to earlier too. The limited hotel space in Doha was all booked up by Fifa themselves and this is what the average fan is left with.

Hillmanhunter1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119881308#Comment_119881308

Well the thing that makes me think that Qataris don't follow the rules is that I have lived in Qatar for many years. I have a couple of Western friends who are gay and they have Qatari friends who are gay. The general view is keep your head down and nobody will bother you.

If you have evidence to the contrary, please feel free to share it.

Hillmanhunter1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119881315#Comment_119881315

As I look out my window (see photo, taken just now) I can see two enormous cruise ships docked in Doha. A third arrives tomorrow. Together they will house more than 10,000 fans. There are also more than 45,000 hotel rooms in the city.

FIFA has booked out one hotel, and each of the teams are lodged in a hotel or resort, but most fans will either stay in a hotel, on one of these ships, or with friends and relations (every Qatar resident seems to be having friends and family visiting). On top of that many fans will base themselves in Dubai and will fly in and out on the same day for games.

But not every visitor has deep pockets and some, from poorer countries, will be looking for cheaper options. That is what is shown.

Tombo2001

Wow Hillman - someone with actual information, and facts, about what is happening on the ground.

Very un-boardslike of you.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119881404#Comment_119881404

The cruise ships and glamping are actually mentioned in the podcast and their was deemed to be not enough even with them.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119855917#Comment_119855917

That’s the same Jurgen Klopp who’s taking his non-WC playing players to that bastion of freedom and morality, Dubai for warm weather training whilst the tournament is on.

Hillmanhunter1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119881440#Comment_119881440

Thankfully the accommodation is the responsibility of experienced managers and not some bunch of blokes chewing the fat.

Every ticket sold is linked to a specified individual. If you are not a resident of Qatar, you cannot visit unless:

1. You can show that you have hotel accommodation or
2. A resident confirms that you are staying with them.

positron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119881219#Comment_119881219

I am just back from India via Abu Dhabi and saw massive hoardings going up in villages across India in support for Argentina or Brazil. Folks are crazy for these two teams for some reason!

I personally know dozens of Indians travelling to Qatar for world cup. Also know of hundreds of Indian migrant workers across middle east who are loving the opportunity that they will finally get to see of their fav sport icons in action for real - some are getting tickets thru corporate packages etc, but vast majority thru a lottery that ran a while back, and/or for volunteering etc.

PS: Indians work all over MiddleEast. While social injustices exists in Middle East (India is far ahead in a lot of these aspects) - even with that - they would rather work in the Middle East and be able to support a family back in India.

The real world is a very different place to the ideologically perfect world that the average Irish boardsie here seems to expect. Not saying they are wrong - it's just different.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119872708#Comment_119872708

Same. No skin off my nose what happens in Qatar. Tough luck if you were born there or somewhere so poor you have to go there for work, but not my problem. If you’re gay etc don’t go.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119881483#Comment_119881483

Ya and there isn't enough hotels therefore not enough people can get in to see the tournament.

I never said people will arrive and sleep on the street did I ?

starkid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119881219#Comment_119881219

Its not false to point out human rights abuses and lawas against LGBT. you're literally on the wrong side of history here. you work and live in Qatar for money, low tax. Taking an is what it is attitude. no doubt Ireland would still be stuck in the past if we had more people like yourself. All through history there was people with the same attitude. The same greed and questionable attitudes.

And it does infer tacit support unfortunately. no matter how much you think it doesn't. i'd say to anybody who moved. be it a teacher, a nurse whomever. if my daughter said she wanted to move i'd tell her she shouldn't. theres more to life than money or careers. again the WC, corporates should also be held to account as much as you. but the 2000 or so Irish people in Qatar, you can bury your heads all you like. its not normal emigration sorry to say.https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/10/24/qatar-security-forces-arrest-abuse-lgbt-people

and don't move the goalposts. Ironic you think you're the superior debater or something. you've purposefully conflated two different things. Gay marriage is not the same as LGBT being illegal on the statute books. Its a harder barrier to cross because of religion and civil laws etc. hopefully one day it will be across the board.

Russia is a **** one as well, and was also a joke at the time. LGBT rights there are however more free than Qatar, but still **** while in Korea it is legal (i'm aware before the 70s Korea was a dictatorship etc).

it is enforced you're either wholly ignorant or a troll.

shame on you for batting so heavily as what i presume is an Irish person.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/nov/14/stadiums-of-shame-the-numbers-world-cup-hosts-qatar-dont-want-to-be-seen

you're a joke.

its not woke to call out human rights abuses or laws against LGBT.

there's nothing to be proud of or smug about being the only person writing from Doha. Genuinely.

it doesn't matter about your anecdotal , western view. you live no doubt in a compound or its equivalent with very little interaction with day to day realities.

here's the law. it doesn't matter a jot if you think its nothing. Gay, trans people are hardly going to be publicly flaunting it to you, considering the below. You're basically speaking on behalf of gay Qataris, something you probably have little knowledge about. I'd hazard a guess they face huge injustices and discrimination. https://www.balls.ie/news/qatar-danish-tv-crew-532768 something like this but far far worse.

Penal Code 2004, Article 281

Article 281 criminalises sexual intercourse ‘without compulsion, duress or ruse’ with a female with a penalty of up to seven years’ imprisonment. The provision is gender-neutral as to the other party so is applicable to same-sex intimacy between women.

Penal Code 2004, Article 285

Article 285 criminalises sexual intercourse ‘without compulsion, duress or ruse’ with a male with a penalty of up to seven years’ imprisonment. The provision is gender-neutral as to the other party so is applicable to same-sex intimacy between men.

Penal Code 2004, Article 296

Article 296 criminalises ‘leading, instigating or seducing a male in any way to commit sodomy’ and ‘inducing or seducing a male or female in any way to commit illegal or immoral actions’ with a penalty of between one and three years’ imprisonment. The term ‘immoral actions’ is undefined.

Sharia Law

In addition to the Penal Code provisions outlined here, Qatar operates Sharia courts in which it is technically possible for men who engage in same-sex intimacy to be sentenced to death.

you're the boards equivalent of comical Ali. no doubt if you have shekels in your pocket, you see nothing.

the Qatar you live in as i presume a white (presumably male) wealthy westerner is not the same life of an indebted migrant, female or gay person in Qatar. no matter how many gay friends you have. i have gay friends, friends and family who are gay and different races, i cannot and will never presume to know what it is like.

starkid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119881236#Comment_119881236

how so given he conflated homosexuality being illegal with gay marriage, and said it was woke to criticize a country for LGBT and migrant abuses.

you're as bad

starkid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119881308#Comment_119881308

he thinks his anecdotal evidence trumps NGOS and governments who actually study this stuff.

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119881986#Comment_119881986

Ah give over, you are looking for a fight.

Thats not what he (or she) said at all - please dont judge.

Tombo2001

Ok -so where then folks - is it ok to hold a World Cup?

Please give me a country that its ok to hold a World Cup in?

England - how could it host a World Cup with its colonial past that it fails to acknowledge, and the cultural artefacts from many different parts of the world that it fails to return?

USA - how can it be allowed to host with its vast wealth inequality, its history of racism, its denial of Women's right to choose.

France - how can it be allowed to host with its treatment of refugees, its historic abuses in Africa, its marginalisation of muslims.

China - its treatment of ethnic minorites, particularly Uigyurs.

Russia - where would you even start.

Italy - its far right politics and its tolerance of far right ultra football groups, and of racism in football grounds.

There heaps of cultural problems no matter where you look. Why is Qatar different.

Also - if its not ok for the Qataris to host a World Cup - then by the same extension, its not OK for Qatar to participate in the World Cup. And its its not OK for Qatar, then its not OK for any Muslim country to host a World Cup -

So why bother having a World Cup at all.

Hillmanhunter1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119881916#Comment_119881916

I live in Qatar, I have studied this society, but you have Google, so I guess you win. Is it how it works?

I have a suggestion. How confident would you be on analysing that Guardian 6,500 deaths number with me? Let's see what you can understand (as opposed to what you can cut'n'paste).

Are you up for it?

Hillmanhunter1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882008#Comment_119882008

None of the NGOs who have reported on Qatar (and specifically Amnesty and HRW) have ever actually visited the place other than perhaps fleetingly (and I'm not even sure about that). In fairness if you read their reports - as opposed to media reports about their reports, they acknowledge that. Their reports are based solely on anecdotes.

The International Labour Organization (ILO) is the UN agency "devoted to promoting social justice and internationally recognized human and labour rights". The ILO has had a permanent office in Qatar for years. The ILO is supported by trade unions and many of their ground staff are trade union officials. In other words, they know what they are talking about. Here is their website about Qatar:

The ILO in Qatar (Arab States)

The ILOs reports are based on observation and research in Qatar, not anecdotes. They don't sugar coat things, but if you want to understand the developments in the labour market in Qatar read their reports.

starkid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882164#Comment_119882164

its a bit disingenuous to call it google led. considering the information is coming from official bodies, investigative journalists etc. you studied Qatar? what from your western decadence or in an actual scientific way. if it was the latter fire ahead.

if you can provide information on it go for it. but only if you can admit that lgbt laws and migrant laws are a real concern and not just some woke thing.

it seems a high number i do admit. but its not like its random unverified twitter shite. you know real NGOS and government agencies are reporting on some of these matters.

ah shure its all semantics, the number was over a long period and not all WC related.

it doesn't matter a huge number of poor migrants, badly paid and treated died building the society you now enjoy in your expat bubble.

starkid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882221#Comment_119882221

that is a lie. the Gaurdian for example (Pete Pattisson and his team) based their total figure of 6,751 on official statistics from the governments of Bangladesh, India, Nepal, Pakistan and Sri Lanka, whose citizens make up a significant proportion of migrant workers in Qatar – in particular poorly-qualified workers. so no not anecdotal google led stuff. like do you actually believe what you write? you think NGOS and investigative journalists just pluck **** from the air? they use the same practices as ILO etc. ffs, trumpian levels of discourse.

its hard to do work on the ground in a country like Qatar particularly if they aren't forthcoming with stats.

those reforms lauded and worked on by the ILO were written by blood. that's the whole point. Its good that they are now progressing, but it still doesn't alter the fact. I mean that is FIFAs argument that this whole tournament will change things etc.

but at this stage i'm actually starting to think you're a paid Qatari troll, or not even Irish.

but continue on with your Trumpian angle of "fake news" google angle.

actually speaking to people who worked there, as well as the governments of the nationalities involved and using their stats isn't anecdotal at all. just cause you don't agree with their assessments doesn't make their work any less.

we'll never agree here, obviously

starkid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882139#Comment_119882139

none of those countries you have listed apart from Russia and China currently have had mass migrant worker excess deaths and none of them criminalize LGBT like Qatar. i mean its quite an obvious thing here.

your latter point is accurate, and is what alot of people are driving at. Should any Muslim or African country that criminalizes LGBT host a WC. IMO and others, no.

its actually one of the ironies in all this. and probably why the focus is more on human rights, as the woke some people speak about here, are actually dead set against Islamaphobia, despite its transgressions etc.

dartboardio

A Filipino customer service worker based in Doha, came out recently to say that he was targeted via a Dating app by 6 men who turned out to be Qatari police, they apparently gang raped him, They then threw him into a jail cell for 1 night, and deported him 2 days later.

Sure, you might say at least he didn't get hung, but please don't say officials turn a blind eye to homosexuality!

Article has since been deleted from Doha News website. Still available on Jerusalem Post and a few others.

While I don't want to drag this thread down the road of "whataboutery", I don't recall the same level of outrage when Russia held the same tournament. It's as least an equally dangerous place to be LGBTQ.

Granted they may not have an official death penalty on the statute books there anymore, but there are numerous stories of gay women reporting themselves as victims of "corrective rape" to the police saying they've been laughed and sneered out the door of the station. Likewise with gay men, beaten to a pulp and urinated on in public streets and parks, police tell them "if you don't like it then you shouldn't have been a f@gg0t". If you get murdered then no criminal investigation will follow.

It doesn't actually take that much of an effort on an individual level to fix this, all it requires is the numbers. The only brand of beer you can legally buy in or around the Qatari stadiums is Budweiser. If a million people sent an e-mail to them saying I will never buy any of your products ever again then that will make a difference. If the world cup final takes place in an 80,000 seat stadium where nobody has paid for a ticket and the whole circus is witnessed by a handful of security guards, then things will change pretty quick.

Wishfull thinking though, the vast majority of people won't make that minimum effort.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119881530#Comment_119881530

Well I wouldn't be that harsh.

But my point is, why should I get on a high horse about injustices a thousand miles away when there is plenty of injustice on my doorstep that I'm not on a high horse about and not doing anything about.

Qatar should never have got the world cup because it's too small, has too low a population, is not a popular destination, has no sporting history, and doesn't have the climate.

Not because of the way it treats foreign workers or a minority like LGBTQIA+ people.

Hillmanhunter1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882228#Comment_119882228

So I am happy to delve into the 6,500 number with you, but under the silly condition that you want to impose.

Interesting that you think it is a high number - I'm guessing that whatever you do for a living it is not related to numbers. Otherwise, you would surely be calling for an international tribunal to investigate the 14,000+ who died in the UK in September 2022 alone.

By the way, the 6,500 number was not uncovered by some sleuthing hack, it is published in the statistics published by Qatar.

When looking at deaths, and particularly looking at abnormal rates, the key number is the mortality rate. The mortality rate (usually expressed as deaths per 100,000) is "a measure of the number of deaths (in general, or due to a specific cause) in a particular population, scaled to the size of that population, per unit of time".

So, what does this 6,500 tell us about the mortality rate for migrant workers in Qatar? Are you able to work it out, or do you want me to do it for you?

Hillmanhunter1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882258#Comment_119882258

No, the Guardian number was based on Qatar government statistics.

And Pete Pattisson was sitting on his arse in Khatmandhu when he wrote that piece.

BorneTobyWilde

Are the citizens of Qatar living in peace and happiness? Seems everyone is getting enraged on behalf of others who are living contently.

Hillmanhunter1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882338#Comment_119882338

You neglect to mention that this "customer service worker" was engaged in prostitution.

Gay Filipino says he was gang raped by police in Qatar hotel in 2018 - The Jerusalem Post (jpost.com)

Generally in Qatar the police couldn't care about homosexuality, but they clamp down hard on prostitution (male or female). Qataris are disgusted by the rampant prostitution in Dubai and Bahrain, and are determined that it will never be like that in Qatar.

Anyone (male or female) caught selling sex is deported immediately.

I don't know (no more than you) if this person was raped, and it would be horrific if he was, but this person's "sin" was prostitution, not homosexuality.

BorneTobyWilde

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi4Aj_D2tmo

Seems like a lovely place, where people of many cultures live in peace. As for the cultural differences with the west, isn't that normal to have differences, I think most important is fact it's not North Korea, people are free to live, but also free to roam, to leave, to explore the world, and live in a place that suits their lifestyle.

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882288#Comment_119882288

Ok - so you get to decide that LGBT issues are what a World Cup lives or dies on, not any of the other issues mentioned - is that it?