NI Census 2021

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119745354#Comment_119745354

I had always just assumed it derived from "Uladh" somewhete along the way.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119744756#Comment_119744756

Maybe you would give us a link to me ‘implying’ that ulsterscots and Irish were treated equally by eu. You are just making stuff up again.

downcow

Back to the census. Does anyone know approx % of people in roi who submit census forms in Irish ?

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119742244#Comment_119742244

wrong.

firstly you need to separate genuine Irish language lovers from those who want to use it as a weapon.

The only people who "weaponised" the Irish language are those who hate it. You may not know this, but there were native Irish speakers in every county in Ulster in 1920. What hastened the decline of the language in the Sperrins, S Armagh and N Antrim?

the second group are the loudest and are the ones demanding it is pushed on everyone. They also hate the idea of any equivalence given to ulster/Scots, whether financial or otherwise.

I don't mind if support is given to Ulster Scots. Many Irish speakers are favorable or neutral on the matter. Equivalence is different: as you said yourself, the vast majority of Unionists don't care about it. And there are various reasons for this. First of all, most Unionist leaders would view it as a backward rural dialect. (There's a class of individual in the Republic who feel the same way about Irish, with a preponderance in FG). In second place they recognise it for what it is: a dialect of English, and certainly not a prestigious one. They wouldn't be seen dead speaking it to their Tory bosses. And as a dialect of English it has few possibilities of developing into a proper language. I used the word degraded earlier, and I'll explain what that means below.

before you claim republicans are comfortable with Ulster Scots language, just read a few recent posts on this page. And to suggest both are treated equally or with equal respect is nonsense. Here is what a recent poster said, “it's merely a degraded version of Scots to the extent that it is now simply English with a few daftie stupidy words”. They are not even treat equally on this forum. If I made such statement about Irish my feet wouldn’t touch the ground - my goodness I was getting lambasted for accidentally misspelling words. Dare I have responded about daftie stupidy spelling.

Ulster Scots, to the extent that it is spoken, is a degraded version of Scots. Indeed, today Scots itself is a degraded version of what it used to be.

What I mean here is that it has no capacity for renewing and developing itself: all new words and ideas come directly from English rather than from the intellectual resources of the Scots language community. I wrote daftie stupidy yesterday, and you clearly didn't understand the reference. About fifteen or twenty years ago, a document was produced in Ulster Scot (translated from English)s - and it referred to intellectually challenged children. And how was the phrase "intellectually challenged children" translated into Ulster Scots? Well, the translator called these children "wee daftie stupidy bairns". Or maybe it was "wee daftie stupidy wains". Now you could praise them for making an attempt to develop the language rather than using the English phrase directly, but unfortunately they didn't quite hit the bullseye there. So if you didn't understand before, maybe you now get what the words "degraded dialect" mean. You took it as an insult, but it was simply a description of where Ulster Scots is today as a language.

in short your post is far removed from reality. I do not know a unionist who does not appreciate and support the honest development of the beautiful native Irish language. Most of us would see it as much more deserving of financial support than Ulster Scots language. You just need to get the militants to stop aligning with it.

So you want people who have struggled for the dignity of their own community and their history and their native language to stop "aligning" with Irish? And leave the work to who?

And pray tell, if they did that - are you telling us that all of a sudden Sammy Wilson, Edwin Poots, Arlene Kelly and all the rest of them will suddenly start learning Irish and provide it with all the reasources that have been denied to it all through Unionist misrule in the 6 counties?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119745595#Comment_119745595

When you bragged about the two of them having the same status in the EU.

They don’t.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119745579#Comment_119745579

Virtually everything in the post I replied to was incorrect, yet you complain about "being misquoted". In fact, I actually quoted your own words back to you.

Might I suggest that you study the meaning of the word "quote" before you use it again?

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119746256#Comment_119746256

Indeed and they don't.

Irish is a full official language of the EU. For decades it wasn't, but now it is. No version of Scots is or ever was official to any extent in the EU.

However, downcow and yourself are confusing the status of Irish in the EU with the treatment of Irish and Scots (in Scotland and N Ireland alike) under the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages. This Charter has nothing to do with the EU and vice versa. It is a convention under the Council of Europe which is a completely separate body and unconnected with the EU. For instance, countries such as Armenia, Norway, Serbia the UK and even Ukraine are members of the Council of Europe.

Hopefully this will clarify matters to some extent.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119746340#Comment_119746340

I never mentioned minority languages. I know the difference between the EU and the CoE.

The EU sees Irish as an official language and a Class 111. Ulster Scots is not an official language and Class 11.

downcow was factually wrong.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119745655#Comment_119745655

That is just an arrogant rant from someone who thinks Irish has some Devine right over everything else.

most people (and I include many nationalists in this) couldn’t care less if people spend their time promoting Irish language, we are just fed up being told that we must join in and our taxes must be used to pay for it.

Many in my community used to have similar arrogance around parading. They thought that they had a Devine right to parade anywhere and that everyone should be forced to enjoy it. In fairness they didn’t go as far as expecting everyone to pay for it with their taxes.

let me be clear. Irish language is a lovely thing and it’s great that a small number of people have dedicated themselves to promoting it. I also support the millions pumped in by British taxes to promote it. I even support the preferential treatment given to the Irish schools sector in ni. I do find it unfortunate that many militant republicans have used it in their sectarian struggle and I find it offensive when it is put up in areas where people are trying to live side by side with diverse neighbours - sometime as signage, sometimes to tell my people to her out

as for your point on degrading a language. Tiocfaidh ár lá and the likes painted on walls and shouted at young Protestants simply because they are Protestant is far more degrading than ‘daftie’ in my view. You had to search back years to find a silly unintentional inappropriate use of ulster-Scot’s. I can give you nasty intentional inappropriate use of Irish on a daily basis by those from young people to sports stars and from terrorists to politicians.

you need to take the blinkers of.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119746719#Comment_119746719

Francie, have the balls to admit your misquoting of me. You said I claimed the eu treated both Irish and ulster/Scot’s equally. I have asked you several times for the quote. You are spinning all directions and clear for everyone to see rather than just admitting you dreamt it (or rather wished it)

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119747126#Comment_119747126

I clarified that you 'implied' it. You have clarified, which is fine and revealing.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119747199#Comment_119747199

Francie I hate to be boring. But would you give us a link to where I ‘implied it’?

you just keep posting untruths.

downcow

The census shows that the decision on a Ui will be taken by the 1/3 in the middle. Yet it’s now daily the displays of hate towards our community in roi. Tonight it’s ‘up the ra’ being sung by those in Dublin airport.

tbh it’s great news for unionists. This is ensuring the moderates see how unionists would be treated if there was ever a Ui.

whilst it is offensive and hurtful, it is much more palatable than a Ui, so keep at it

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119749749#Comment_119749749

Most of the IRA during the troubles were from NI not ROI. You only see murals of the IRA in NI. The offences towards ''your community'' is strongest by people from NI. Do you not agree? so saying living in a UI jurisdiction will be hurtful and offensive compared with the NI jurisdiction you currently live is disingenuous.

moon2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119740803#Comment_119740803

"Both are declared minority languages" elides the fact that these languages have different classifications. It is a fair assessment that your statement is misleading at best.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119745655#Comment_119745655

Do you realise that native speakers of Irish had died out by mid-1970s in Northern Ireland. That means that Irish is as much an invented language as Ulster-Scots, albeit timelines are different.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119754372#Comment_119754372

'an invented language'??

You have been corrected on this before but persist with an untruth.

Native speakers of certain dialects died out in the 70's. Most are happy to speak in the Donegal dialect, which, contrary to Unionist geographers, is a proud part of Ulster.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119754614#Comment_119754614

The Tyrone and Antrim dialects died out in the 1970s, and Irish had to be artificially restored in the North, just like Ulster-Scots.

And last I checked, Donegal isn't in Northern Ireland.

Speedline

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119754930#Comment_119754930

Well it's not Southern Ireland or Western Ireland or Eastern Ireland.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119754372#Comment_119754372

The Irish language is indigenous to all of Ireland. All the counties and most of the towns in the north name derive from irish. Picking a certain part of Ireland whether it be Antrim or wexford and saying it has died is not a reason to ignore it from irish culture which obviously the north is very much part of.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119754930#Comment_119754930

Yes, 'dialects' not the language itself.

It wasn't 'artificially restored' either but if it was and there are now 11% using it, just think what an ILA and the removal of bans on it's use will do?

Unless of course you hate the language and think it should die out?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119754994#Comment_119754994

It is not part of Northern Ireland, it is amazing how people struggle to say those words, you would think that a little respect for the people of Northern Ireland would allow that.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119755054#Comment_119755054

It was artificially restored, the local dialects died out and were replaced by outside dialects. The restoration was very successful, that is clear, but it was an artificial restoration, that is also true.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119755180#Comment_119755180

This ^ from somebody who has just tried to disrespect his own native language by trying to pretend that a few dialects disappearing was the Irish language itself dying out.

Or that attempts to foster it are 'artificial'.

And for what? To appeal to belligerents and anti-Irish culture suprematitsts.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119755220#Comment_119755220

I said that the Irish language died out in Northern Ireland, that is true, none of the original dialects from there still exist.

Christy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119749749#Comment_119749749

Daily? You are really trying to hype this up aren't you. You have 2 incidents over the last I don't know how long so daily is a stretch.

In addition, while I see why offense can be taken at both, on neither occasion were the singers targeting your community. Both were acts of stupidity, the Irish team were singing a list of songs and sang one they shouldn't have. They apologised. The airport was a reaction to the line of questioning the Irish team faced over the first incident. This will blow over and would have already without the interviewer from Sky being condescending. However it would be nice if those offended could use those feelings to see how many would feel less than stellar about the support for the armed forces every year which caused so much damage to the NI community or how many feel less comfortable in NI which has a bank holiday that has sectarian hate as a major component with not a lot of push back from authorities.

Finally they know how they will be treated in a UI. They can come down south and see.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119755238#Comment_119755238

No it didn't.

For eg: Bunscoil Phobal Feirste, the first Irish primary school in the north was open in Belfast in 1971 (when you say it had died out) and now has 450 pupils, and only recieved official government funding in 1984.

Dialects will come and go especially if there are bans on it's official use, stigmatisation and neglect, which there was. That mirrored what happened the language under British rule in the south. Here are the dialects that have survived:

Munster, spoken in the southern part of the island (Counties Cork, Kerry, and Clare).

Connacht, spoken in the western part of the island (primarily Counties Galway, Mayo, and Sligo).

Ulster, spoken in the northern part of the island (Mostly in County Donegal, but also in parts of Monaghan, Cavan, Derry, Antrim, Down, Armagh, Fermanagh, and Tyrone).

There used to be a fourth regional dialect — Leinster Irish, spoken in the eastern part of the island — but Leinster Irish has died out as a distinct dialect.

Of today's Ulster dialects, those of Tír Chonaill are the most important. They show considerable differences from the rest of Ireland in vocabulary, too:

You'll notice that Ulster dialect is used in all of the 6 counties.

Irish Gaelic dialects (uhi.ac.uk)

Sam Russell

The reaction to this chant by the Ladies football team is utter nonsense.

It occurred in the privacy of their changing room shortly after winning through to the Ladies World Cup for the first time ever. It was leaked by someone to twitter who did not respect the privacy of the celebrations, and it is that act that should attract the opprobrium.

Now that aside, the people that took offense are easily offended. In fact, I would think they go out of their way to be offended.

Are they offended when the Irish tricolour is burnt atop of bonfires in NI on the night of the 11th of July every year? Of course not.

Are the offended when the flag of the Cote d'Ivoire had to be removed from the window of a shop displaying the flags of the nations appearing in the Special Olympics because it resembled the Irish tricolour (it is the reverse but same colours)? Of course not.

Are they offended at the frequent reference by NI politicians to the 'Free State' when referring to this state - Ireland? Of course not.

They retain their offence to a group of young Irish ladies celebrating in the privacy of their changing room just after a welcome victory giving them a place at the World Cup.

How childish but predictable.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119755350#Comment_119755350

Thanks for that link which proves my point. From your link:

"ULSTER DIALECTS

are said to be nearest Scottish Gaelic, but since the East Ulster dialects of Rathlin Island and the Glens of Antrim have become extinct, I doubt if this is still the case."

Which bit of extinct do you not understand?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119755717#Comment_119755717

Which bit of this do you need to retract?

I said that the Irish language died out in Northern Ireland,

It didn't, you now know it didn't but keep up the defence.