NI Census 2021

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119734382#Comment_119734382

and what area do you think this would encompass? As far as I can see, the only areas where there is a secure Protestant majority are the centre and northwest of Co Antrim, and the Northern half of Co Down - and even there, you have two problems. The first is that these areas are not contiguous and the second is that when push comes to shove many Protestants will just accept the new status quo, so you may not have sufficient numbers even in this heartland of yours.

All other areas have too many CNRs to be included in your new autonomy. But if you feel it is worth it, go for it. Two half-counties out of six. Sorry, I mean out of thirty-two!

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119735401#Comment_119735401

While it is nice that a few terrified unionists are starting to engage, the problem with this is that it may no longer be FFG making the decisions. In the same way that much, even most of unionism has been refusing to engage the whole way along leaving them now in a very weak position, it may now be too late to hitch yourselves to FFG. They have been sinking, and if by any chance they do not form the next government you will be left up shít creek. And only SF will be there to throw you a rope.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119736929#Comment_119736929

You a naively sectarianising it. Do you really think it’s only protestants that feel northern Irish ?

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119736926#Comment_119736926

Do you know why power sharing came about in the first place?

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119736975#Comment_119736975

What's so awful about living in a UI brought about by the democratic decision of your compatriots?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119736975#Comment_119736975

Do you accept the NI identity is not a homogenous one. That it is split three ways on the constitutional question, agnostic, pro the UK Union and pro a UI?

Do you accept the biggest uptake in the NI identity is those moving away from a British identity and who may continue moving towards wanting a new way of being governed? Persuadable in other words.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119735851#Comment_119735851

Ulster scots is native to Ireland? Not according to the Ulster Scots Agency, it isn't.

Where does Ulster-Scots come from?

The Scots language came to Ulster with the Scottish settlers of the Plantation in the early seventeenth century. Its presence was sustained and reinforced by later migrations and by the strong social and economic ties across the narrow North Channel.

There's a hint in the word "Scots" there. It's at best a dialect of the Scottish version of English; at worst it's a version of English with a few Scottish-sounding words. And they don't even roll their Rs like the Scottish do.

And for this very reason, their website is almost entirely in standard English. This makes it hard to work out what exactly they are promoting, apart from highland dancing, Lambeg drums along with a touch of a funny version of English.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119737034#Comment_119737034

Well, they had to be appeased you see. Couldn't have a beefed up Foras na Gaeilge etc without an Ulster Scots Agency.

Unionism is exhaustingly childish.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119736975#Comment_119736975

So you want to split the 6 counties three ways then, do you? The unionist majority area, the "Northern Irish" majority area, and the CNR majority area? And maybe you could split off a fourth bit, where none of the above are in the majority. Spiffing idea, old chap.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119737060#Comment_119737060

All that hassle when they can have guaranteed pre-ordained cabinet seats in a UI government? 😁

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119734640#Comment_119734640

It is not spelt out how a UI will function in the GFA but it is spelt out how it happens.... both jurisdictions of Ireland need a border poll to pass.

A border poll wont be called unless it looks like the majority want it north and south. So untill then the final details of what it will look like wont be known.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119732984#Comment_119732984

In the case of a UI, what would this new NI boundary look like that wants to break off and become autonomous. Given belfast city now has more nationlist than unionists would it take belfast as the capital city or would you have to have leave it. Would you put a wall throught the city and take the east side?

This new NI would never be let back into the UK and would be breaking the GFA it was. It would probably not let join the commonwealth either and perhaps the UK would even revoke British citizenship for its inhabitants due to the contention it would cause.

Ireland was gerrymandered once and it was not a success . Dublin and London wont let it happen again and staunch unionists have to get over it if there is a UI created by the terms of the GFA

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119737001#Comment_119737001

Fair question. Made me think.

not sure I’d use the word ‘awful’.

A ‘deep sadness’ may be more appropriate. I guess (and I’m only guessing) it would be same for you if England took over ROI and ensured their culture would dominate. You would come under the monarchy. Your main news would begin each evening with a nod to the reformation and young English people would regularly sing celebratory sungs about the Paras, and mock your grief, etc, etc, etc

it’s not easy to explain. It would be devastating for most in the unionist community. It is why Arlene would have to consider leaving; a thought I would also have to process.

I could see a statue like this being placed outside Belfast city hall as both appropriate and helpful.

I actually don’t know if most of us would be demoralised and broken or energised and emboldened. I don’t think we’d land anywhere in between.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119737023#Comment_119737023

like any identity, to try and put it in a box is like herding cats.

what’s most refreshing and admirable about Northern Irish Identity is that unlike Irish, English, etc, it is owned by, and has be chosen voluntarily by, those who connect to it. This is unusual the world over. I think it is what makes it so special to belong to and shows itself in many ways eg the passion of NI sports fans.

I guess the one obvious collective belief/value across everyone who describes themselves as Northern Irish is a determination that Northern Ireland exists. Indeed many people used to wear T-shirts etc with “we exist” on them (I have one in the cupboard I think) - That was sad but no one feels that need anymore as the census etc demonstrates that everyone know ‘we exist’ and we are the fastest growing identity on these islands.

So I hope you keep insisting NI must be airbrushed away, as there is no surer way to ensure a very heathy anti-UI vote remains. Keep up your good work 👍

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119737034#Comment_119737034

Will there you go. You can’t hide it.

anyhow you contradict yourself. You tell us it’s Scots and then in same post you tell us it’s different from Scots. You pretty much identify it’s uniqueness to this island in your post. Some areas of roi have had a big impact on its development.

that said I have zero interest in any hobby/cultural language. I am only interested in languages that have a communication purpose and I am coping fine with English. I enjoy other aspects of Ulster Scots culture.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119737060#Comment_119737060

Now you are just making stuff up. I am northern Irish and want Northern Ireland to stay together. If you would give us Donegal as well I’d take it 🙂

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119737486#Comment_119737486

Fear of of devolved institutions and the increasing northern Irish identity evidenced in the census has lead you to paint scenarios of walls running through Belfast.

you do realise that walls went up in Belfast to separate Protestants from catholics in in the 1800s during the short period in history that Ireland was United. They went up at the insistence of the Catholic Church, not in fear of physical harm but rather to keep catholics pure and not to be infected by heathen Protestants. The sectarianism and hatred is embarrassing isn’t it?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119737571#Comment_119737571

The British identity is a 'chosen' one too, certainly if you were born in Ireland.

And the problem with the 'we exist' thing is that it highlights insecurity and nothing much else.

And it has yet to be demonstrated how the NI identity would vote when a plan for a UI is presented to them. I fancy most of them will be persuadeable or choose to remain 'Irish' as that is the only country in their title. People are casting off the 'British' identity and more will when the British prove yet again that they don't care a jot for NI when it comes to their own interests.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119737609#Comment_119737609

Oh absolutely it highlighted an insecurity, but the point I am making is that that is in the past. The ‘we exist’ T-shirts are gone. We are the fastest growing identity on these islands (And maybe anywhere).

you completely misunderstand the NI identity if you think it demonstrates any desire to be run by roi. Try telling the North or South Koreans that the name of the country suggests they would be happy to be ruled by their neighbour.

the census was a huge disappointment to Irish republicans who inevitably describe themselves as Irish only They watched this identity that they hate (NI) take leaps forward , while they had to come to terms with the fact that 100 years ago 33% described themselves as Irish only and today that has dropped into the 20s. Project UI is in big trouble

FrancieBrady

Ahem

This shows a fall in the number of people who identify as ‘British only’ fell from 39.9% to 31.9%. In contrast, there has been a rise in the number of people who identify as ‘Irish only’, up from 457,500 to 554,400, (33.3%)

And I wouldn't be calling a 2% rise 'leaps forward'.

Those who identify as 'Northern Irish' was 31.5%, up from 533,100 people (29.4%) in 2011. 

There is also this stark reminder that NI is changing fundamentally.

But only a minority of 40% of the total population considered themselves exclusively British.

This rose to 48%, still a minority, when multiple identities such as British and Northern Irish (6.2%) were included in the count.

The strategic danger here again for Unionism and partitionists is to assume the Northern Irish identity is at one on the constitutional question.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119737571#Comment_119737571

Northern irish identity the fastest growing? You do know it fell in the latest census.

I asked Fionn this last week and got a weak response. Perhaps you can give me a better response. What unique culture has Northern Ireland that isn't a subset of either irish culture or British culture? Some culture that is only unique to the 6 counties please that unite you as a nation.

Northern irish is not a nation. They have no unique culture. Like most jurisdiction that are set up for a unique nation. The Northern Ireland jurisdiction was not created because there was a unique Northern Irish nation. It was simply splitting the irish nation on do you want to be in or out of the UK and coming up with a gerrymandered boundary line on that basis. At best Northern Irish is an identity to a jurisdiction which makes it precious especially given there is an international peace treaty on how the jurisdiction will end.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119737596#Comment_119737596

Do walls not already run through belfast? I understood from your previous post that should there be a UI that then you will push for a new gerrymandered NI boundary that will be not part of a UI. That is what you proposing should there be a UI? My response was how could a new boundary ever be agreed with out walls going through belfast.

On the second paragraph the most shameful thing of irish history is the grip the catholic church had over people. But the good news is today in 2022 it has little to no power over the state. Also in the 1800's Ireland was all in the UK so it has to be acknowledged the catholic church also had shameful power within the UK jurisdiction.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119737609#Comment_119737609

That is completely patronising and insulting to those who are born British on this island, it is also a repudiation of the Good Friday Agreement which confirmed the birthright of those who are British on this island.

Your fancy in respect of the Northern Irish identity is fantastical. The basis of a Northern Irish identity is that they see Northern Ireland as somewhat distinct to a greater or lesser degree from Ireland or Britain. On what basis do you think that anyone who identifies as something is prepared to give that something up? Do you somehow think that people who identify as gender fluid are persuadable to choose male because that is part of their identity like Irishness is part of Northern Irishness? Do you believe that national identity is of lesser importance than gender identity?

The likes of Leo Varadkar and others like myself can see the challenge that this poses for a united Ireland. Anyone who isn't riddled with green blindness can see it too.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119737832#Comment_119737832

As usual misquoting the GFA. Anyone born in Ireland or UK has the birthright to identify as anything they wish... why? Because Ireland and the UK both have freedom of expression in their law. The GFA regarding birthright and identity is to do with citizenship. Ie a birthright to be a member of the irish state or the UK state. But despite been explained this you will quote the same shite in a few weeks.

Then you speak for the Northern Irish idenity like they're one homogeneous group who think the same way. Some who identify as Northern Irish want a UI others want to remain part if the UK. You do acknowledge that? What is come clear is nothing can be inferred from what a person who puts NI on a census form wants. They might not wish for NI to exist in any form. But to suit your ideology of partition you will infer that they're one homogeneous group who want the NI jurisdiction to live on.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119737832#Comment_119737832

The British identity is a 'chosen' one blanch. 'Britishness' is an artificial construct to encompass several national identities.

You really need to get your head around that. Nobody is born 'British', babies are born in countries and are British by virtue of their parents choice. Some of them, (see NI census) reject that identity when they reach an age were they can choose.

You can also cast off your 'Irish' identity, if you wish. But you cannot change the fact you were born in Ireland.

The NI identity signifies that those people are Irish first and some will choose the existing Union in a Border Poll while others will opt for a UI.

No figures exist on how many of this designation want an independent NI. There is zero political appetite for an independent NI expressing itself in this designation. So I'll stick with my 'fancy' if it's all the same to you.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119737940#Comment_119737940

As usual misquoting my words.

I didn't speak for the Northern Irish identity like they are one homogenous group, I actually said "the basis of a Northern Irish identity is that they see Northern Ireland as somewhat distinct to a greater or lesser degree from Ireland or Britain". That describes a continuum of identity, but with one common thread - identifying as Northern Irish - linked to the existence of Northern Ireland.

As for your misunderstanding of the GFA, the key provision of the GFA is that it recognises that people born on this island can be Irish or British. The citizenship rules are secondary and consequential to that.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119737969#Comment_119737969

The Northern Ireland identity does not signal that those people are Irish first, that is of your imagination. Again, you misquote or misunderstand me, I did not equate Northern Irish identity to an independent NI, but rather to a distinct NI within another construct. Huge huge difference, but one who failed to grasp.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119737986#Comment_119737986

Munster is distinct inside another construct. That what you mean? I grasped that about Ireland a long time ago.

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119651656#Comment_119651656

The question about the NI identity is how it would split in a border poll. It would be naiive to ignore it, ie. either assume they wouldn't vote or would split 50/50. Looking at the census numbers, I think it would split 5:1 - Remain in the Union:UI, based on the numbers who identify as both British and NI and Irish and NI. A split along those lines in March 2021 would have had 59% in favour of remaining in the Union and 41% in favour of a UI. Although the demographic trend will narrow the gap by 2031, I expect political decisions and the potential economic effect of Brexit to have a bigger impact.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119738150#Comment_119738150

And an actual plan/proposal from Dublin would have a massive impact. Until that is done nobody can make any conclusive claims. 32% or therabouts supported Scottish independence when the Ref was called. On production of the White Paper and a proper debate over 2 years that grew to parity and beyond(for a while) by the time the Ref was held.

A plan/proposal publication is the pivot point when we will get the true numbers.