Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans in OP**

Zola1000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900629#Comment_121900629

I totally agree. Our only remaining possibilities lies with how CCRT take the evidence and create the possibilities of how this murder happening into whole new report

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900650#Comment_121900650

Ya but all reports say it's focussed solely on bailey

I can only assume that's correct although could be the review will just be shut down

I can't see any new suspects being charged

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900282#Comment_121900282

Not as different as you might think, possibly trying to get to the same destination by slightly different routes.

Without evidence to narrow down the possibilities and help point in a particular direction, the further one extrapolates from a point the greater the number of possibilities.

e.g. with the axe was it in its usual place before the killing or not, if it was who took it from there Sophie? her killer? someone else?, if Sophie why - self protection? confrontation? or some other reason? if self protection, against what/who/where? someone at her door? at the gate? at the pump?, someone she knew or a stranger?

At each step the possibilities, unless pruned by evidence, multiply to quickly give an unmanagrable number of possibilities.

tomhammer..

If the axe was involved and indeed was taken

If the confrontation only occured at the gate

That would likely mean Sophie armed herself with an axe before going down to the gate . That to me is an unlikely scenario

More likely the axe was picked up when a caller arrived at the door probably at nite

All speculation

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900613#Comment_121900613

or suggests they have nothing to leak on him?

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900228#Comment_121900228

We don't know why Alfie was ruled out.

It's not our busines to know, we have no right to know.

We don't know about the cut, but possibly it happened before the murder and the Gardai were able to verify that.

People are saying that the Gardai should have spent time looking into other avenues.

But more than likely they did and found nothing, and Bailey was the stand out suspect.

In some ways this case reminds me of the James Hanratty case in the UK from the 1960s.

Hanratty was one of the last people hanged in the UK for murder and rape.

He was convinced on weak circumstantial evidence.

For years after his execution his family and others including politicians and people in public life argued his innocence.

Eventually in 1997 a police inquiry deemed the verdict be overturned and referred to the Court of Appeal.

Then in the early 2000s new DNA technology helped prove that Hanratty was guilty all along.

So the police had it right back 40 years earlier.

Now obviously it's very different but at the end of the day the police had it right no matter what other people said.

It could very well be the case here.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900298#Comment_121900298

Yeah I mean whilst a number of avenues have been mentioned in this forum and other online discussions, repeated every year or so to the degree we’re just going over old ground, the fact remains that the real time to explore these avenues was at the start of the investigation - they jumped on Bailey, justifiably in my view, but they stayed there and hung up their boots, patting themselves on their backs that they had the right man.

There was a neighbour whom she had difficulties with, some loner who knew her and committed suicide 3 months later stating they had done something terrible- and all of the other avenues mentioned which I won’t bother going back over.

There may have been nothing of concern with these other avenues once investigated but really, we’ll never know now, and it does create a lot of doubt naturally enough, for armchair observers.

Clearly there’s no evidence that is known publicly against Bailey that would bring about a prosecution -I imagine the current Garda investigation are keeping quiet on what they know- let’s hope if they insist on going at Bailey yet again, that they can justify their years of review work. Otherwise it will be a total disaster, a waste of time effort and money, and more importantly, it will yet again bring those other poorly investigated avenues or right back centre stage.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900125#Comment_121900125

Motive to call to the house? Sorry but that’s total balderdash - there was a suggestion he went there with amorous attempt- with absolutely no basis other than the Gardai couldn’t think of any other reason- yet there was no evidence of sexual assault which leaves that theory in the realm of fantasy - Bailey had a violent history against partners, yes, but not a sexually violent history such as rape - so you can stop posting gibberish as so called factual statements - they’re as empty as any armchair detective theory.

Zola1000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900701#Comment_121900701

Yes this is very well posted and exactly the mantra of the entire case. Truly hope all their work isn't in vain..and that evidence they now have can bring us to place of more conclusion. I want to believe jn their work and IB is likely as any..we just need that knot of evidence tied up once and for all.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900676#Comment_121900676

It was said she was looking for a companion to accompany her for the visit. She was only going for a short time so I would think she wasn't entirely comfortable visiting this time so not unusual to arm herself when disturbed in the dark? She was said to be fearless and feisty. It is also very strange that the book she was reading was opened at a page about death in a foreign place (at least reported to be).

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900228#Comment_121900228

Have to say I don’t disagree in any way with what you’ve said - there’s a hell of lot more there worth investigating than there was with Bailey

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900711#Comment_121900711

Nah it's you talking rubbish

If bailey is the killer he clearly had a motive to call to the house

It's simple logic

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900723#Comment_121900723

there’s a hell of lot more there worth investigating than there was with Bailey

Like what?

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900750#Comment_121900750

Y'all be waiting for anything concrete on all these new leads and avenues being referenced

The only new avenue today was DTDP who is unlikely as this was unlikely to be a planned murder as bjac stated

Alfie is briefly back in contention also

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900715#Comment_121900715

I don’t think anyone on this thread says “Bailey didn’t do it”- or if they do say that they’re idiots - similarly people saying “Bailey is the best bet”, are again idiots as it’s totally devoid of any rational argument.

There’s very flimsy so called evidence against Bailey - personally speaking the “briar” marks on his hands and arms which he said were Christmas trees and turkeys, is probably the most interesting piece of evidence and the one reason why I think he should remain a suspect - but I also believe the neighbour with the bandage on their hand should also have been a suspect until properly ruled out .

And yeah good point- I want to believe in the work of the current investigators - but at this point it’s through the results they produce that they will be judged - I’d prefer if they admitted many mistakes were made throughout this investigation - I’d respect them a hell of a lot more if they did, and I think a lot of people would leave it there, knowing that some chances to catch the killer were missed and unlikely now that justice will ever be realised

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900700#Comment_121900700

In some ways this reminds me of the McBrearty case in Donegal. Harassment, bugging, garda malpractice, falsification of evidence..... at the end of the day the gardaí had it wrong no matter what other people said.

It could very well be the case here.

Day Lewin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900700#Comment_121900700

Looked up the Hanratty case, very shocking.

But there are also a considerable number of cases where a person convicted was found to be innocent when better technology allowed for eg DNA testing; try, Leonard Mack, for example.

And that's not to mention tragic cases where a person was executed, and later found to be not guilty.

Police are human, they aren't always right; and hunch is a very poor guide.

I'm glad a new team are taking a second look at the whole business.

And I'd still love to know why Mr Lyons was ruled out!

And who removed those two pages from the police record - and why.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900736#Comment_121900736

Like wanting to wine and dine Sophie, a woman he never met before, at 3am ? Yeah right

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900776#Comment_121900776

Yeah I’ve mentioned that previously- hence the need for Gardai to put their hands up to the failings in this investigation

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900780#Comment_121900780

All of your talk of people being convicted and then found innocent ignores the fact that our prime suspect in this case.

• Mislead the Gardai about his whereabouts the night of the murder.
• Told multiple people he did it.
• Had unexplained scratches and a cut on his forehead.
• Had a history of violence towards women.
• Was known to walk the roads late at night
• Had a weird premonition that something bad would happen.
• Had the physical attributes to inflict such violence with a block.
• Had a bonfire that others have claimed was after the murder not weeks before it as he claims.

When talking about Bailey people can't just ignore any of the above.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900858#Comment_121900858

Damning evidence - DPP must have been asleep that day -I mean “walking roads late at night”- he must have done it.

tomhammer..

The alternative scenarios to bailey seem limited

Bjsc states a stranger killer and a french hitman are unlikely

The neighbours were presumably interviewed and eliminated

That mostly leaves persons unknown for reasons unknown to paraphrase fish on a bike

This is a lady thats bludgeoned to death at her gate in a remote location

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900858#Comment_121900858

Up to 6 persons contradicting his account of not having met her

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900886#Comment_121900886

Again and again and again posters come back with "well the DPP......" in relation to Bailey evidence.

How many times have I said on this thread that I'm well aware that the evidence against Bailey is circumstantial and was never good enough for charges?

I'll tell you the answer....loads of times.

But the circumstantial evidence we have against Bailey are facts, and there are no other facts around this case that point to another person as a stronger suspect than Bailey.

Thus my belief that Bailey is the best suspect.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900927#Comment_121900927

And how many times has it been pointed out to you that the facts we have about the case are the function of an incompetent, unsafe, potentially corrupt Garda investigation? That "lost" evidence? Marie Farrell? Logs book deliberately tampered with?

Evidence that pointed away from Bailey lost or not followed up on.

If Bailey is your "best" suspect, and this is the flimsy evidence the Guards found by fair means and foul, we need to look elsewhere.

Zola1000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900774#Comment_121900774

This is excellently posted. It would be where I'm at overall. I mean AGS would get lot more behind them if they admitted some of earlier failings and maybe just maybe they wanted to alleviate some of that pressure on french side and put out the front they had large amount of files and had a suspect. Look it's what lot of people would probably have done in same situation.

But that has now been found over and over again to be detrimental to investigation techniques and resultant in flawed investigation.

It's still highly likely no conclusion will be reached but naturally it's what a lot of don't want. We want to hopefully have something to move nearer to reason for this murder at least.

bjsc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121899644#Comment_121899644

Also on the other thread you posted praising the French authorities for exhuming Sophie's body and performing a second post mortem. Rightly so.

The conclusion of that post mortem was that Sophie suffered a traumatic right frontal skull fracture overlying the orbital area, the edges of which were jagged, and which was caused by a blunt object with uneven edges.

There were one or two blows to the right side of the head and those on the left were caused by a "contre-coup" with the head resting against a hard surface when the blows to the right side of the head were struck.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900944#Comment_121900944

The Gardai didn't make up his failed alibi.

The Gardai didn't make up Bailey telling multiple people he did it.

The Gardai didn't make up his violence.

The Gardai didn't make up that he was known to walk the roads late at night.

The Gardai didn't make up his weird premonition that something bad would happen.

The Gardai didn't make up that he had the physical attributes to inflict such violence against Sophie.

The Gardai didn't make up that Delia Jackson said Bailey had a bonfire when she was home from England at Christmas.

All of these are facts, real facts.

Mackinac

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900776#Comment_121900776

Of the many theories that have crossed my mind about this case I have wondered if there were two crimes going on in the area that night, one of them being Sophie’s murder . The other crime may have been connected or maybe not but certain people wouldn’t want to explain or let it be known why they were in the area.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121900982#Comment_121900982

All of these points are debatable and / or circumstantial, none of it is direct evidence.

The reason for his failed alibi is - wasn't it, in your words, the Guards used a fake witness in Marie Farrell? The Guards made that up. Totally understandable for an innocent person to change their statement as a defensive move when faced with such Garda corruption and wrongdoing.

One of your 'facts' is that he was physically capable of inflicting the violence?

You want to give us the a guess at the number of people that applies to, that by that standard that can now be considered a fact against them as suspects in the murder? Hundreds? Thousands?

In your own time.

Absolutely desperate stuff.

Real facts. The Garda log book that showed how Bailey was identified as their suspect were deliberately destroyed. We have multiple pieces of evidence "lost" the implications of which are unknown in terms of pointing to other suspects or exonerating Bailey (but we can be fairly sure if they assisted the Garda case against Bailey they would not have been "lost"). We have the instructions of the State Pathlogist overruled by local Guards with regard to handling of the body.

We have Guards on tape discussing altering witness statements. We have related witness statements "lost".