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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans lifted - see OP**

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    Ya he moves the goalposts around when engaged. I quit bothering with him



  • Registered Users Posts: 924 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 206 ✭✭Zola1000


    I totally agree. Like the justification as to why investigation was conducted in way it was needs to be brought to public attention. I had mentioned @bjsc earlier but I understand it may sound totally unreasonable but my question was at high level can AGS not agree with Cold case team to look at all other evidence and not just evidence submitted to DPP on two prior occasions. Surely the information gathering could start from beginning. But i guess it's just highly unlikely



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 192 ✭✭Ms Robini


    Your posts are spot on, keep it up. I hope you are never swayed by the baseless nonsense trotted out here by people who prefer to poke holes in circumstantial evidence than stand back, look at the facts and evidence as a whole, and accept that it points one way. It is for the authorities now to conclude the case review and for the new, less misogynistic Office of the DPP to look at all the evidence - including any new evidence that has come to light as part of the continuing investigation.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,774 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    stand back, look at the facts and evidence as a whole, and accept that it points one way

    There are very few, if any, facts that point in any direction. What you have are some easily dismissed bits of circumstantial info which is of no prosecution value.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 206 ✭✭Zola1000


    This post is borderline comical. Are you actually suggesting there is evidence to get a conviction in present state. There is lots of circumstantial evidence but what you keep failing to note is our system won't just take circumstantial evidence alone..have you got the DNA at scene? ...no ...then what have we..

    It points one way...yes and the information does not stack up. We still have no evidence he met her knew her had any interaction with her...and most hilarious is people even say he knew he left no DNA at scene and was willing take risk..like after all alcohol all his apparent clumsiness and yet..he had no knowledge of samples of anything found for testing that he wasn't on them. Like even hair fibre. It's truly comical.

    Lastly I've mentioned here few times but the Information the DPP has is only as good as information provided to it from AGS. AGS are responsible for the failed investigation of STDP



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    That may change if the file is submitted to the DPP

    He may say the evidence would have warranted a prosecution

    Can't see any other developments at this stage



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,737 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    ""...can AGS not agree with Cold case team to look at all other evidence and not just evidence submitted to DPP on two prior occasions. Surely the information gathering could start from beginning. But i guess it's just highly unlikely

    Well, no. In fact that is the whole idea of a "cold case review"

    A new look, with fresh eyes, starting from scratch and taking a fresh look at EVERYTHING. Establishing a timeline (last sighting of deceased, first sighting of body etc) and reviewing all evidence - first and foremost, of course, any physical forensic evidence from the scene. But also hearsay, circumstances, suggestive trends and historical factors.

    Not aiming to prove or disprove any previous theory or theories. Just looking at the whole case again.

    And it is a different team altogether, a new pair of eyes.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,774 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Two DPPs said the evidence put forwards was crap. The current DPP in not likely to suddenly see it as having legal worth



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    All media reports state that the the review is solely focussed on bailey . I therefore assume this is likely true.

    I assume the below

    -The cold case team start with an open mind

    -Therefore there are no "avenues" "new leads" of any merit



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    Correct

    I'm talking about the beefed up case file as reported in the media

    May turn out nothing comes of the review



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,774 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Thats a problem because there is no merit in the Bailey avenue given the rubbish AGS put to the DPP in order to prosecute him.

    What you're effectively suggesting is the Cold Case team are following the hunches of the original team. Hunches like the one the malicious c**t who wouldn't drop it in the Kerry Baby case and who knew she was guilty despite scientific evidence



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    I believe its a fair assumption that the CCR team start with an open mind and take it from there

    That's pretty much their job description

    No reason to think otherwise



  • Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭Mackinac


    Regarding the axe. Is there any evidence this was used in the attack? If J Hellen hadn’t noticed it was missing would an axe ever been mentioned?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 206 ✭✭Zola1000


    Yes that's fair point but in justification as to what other available information there is , or can an investigation actually be conducted on new theories and motives..

    Ok so I'm saying that the french wouldn't allow us investigate on their territory, and in early days were highly critical of our investigation but happy to take all evidence and then use their law on circumstances to provide for conviction.

    Like we still know so little on french side. Some of circumstantial evidence for husband DTDP needs a massive review imo.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    I can only assume the CCR team took a look at the french angle

    They hardly gonna waste resources on a massive review if not needed

    There's no suspicion among the family of DTDP

    Vague talk here about a money motive

    Bjsc has already stated a French hitman is unlikely. Now he hardly hired a paddy to do the job!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,587 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    But is the real problem with the report or with the original investigation and the case that it presented to the DPP?

    It would be extremely unhealthy if the DPP was not able to criticise a case submitted for prosecution that was so flawed, unsupported by evidence and had so many loose ends as to be useless.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,372 ✭✭✭Deeec


    I do think the family are or were suspicious of DTDP. In the netflix documentary they mention that they were shocked that Daniel didn't travel to Ireland in the immediate aftermath of Sophie's murder. They also mention he was very well connected and had financial problems. It was clear to me watching the doc that the family had no love for or any real relationship with Daniel.

    I think they were suspicious of him but for whatever reason cannot or do not want to say that publicly.

    For the cold case team to dismiss and not investigate a french connection to this murder would be very foolish.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 206 ✭✭Zola1000


    Yes it's massive resources that have been wasted up to now and no conclusion. They were not allowed investigate much on french side I read or correct me on that..

    I didn't say suspicion on the family. But I just find it more some of elements need a lot of review. I'm not talking about hitmen or money.

    Basically I felt first scenario was when Michael Sheridan interviewed DTDP in 2002 think it was. But what found very strange from interview was that father of Sophie had asked Michael prior to interview to ask Daniel did he love his daughter. Very strange thing to ask but led me to believe the family did not know Daniel well or were on much speaking terms. Also I know he didn't travel with Sophie..fine and he has call with her..and all that they were on good terms..but he had baby with his other partner less than six months later. Now I'm not saying anything but mentally it must have had significant effect on Sophie and was it said she was also pregnant when she died..is this true?

    She was certainly using cork to escape and in way was her new territory but someone hd grudge..and I believe it's underlying theme here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    They're a specialist unit

    They wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't start with an open mind



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,272 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Going back to the Doctor who pronounced death. It was reported (dispute about rigor mortis I know) that he had made notes at the time. What was in those notes I wonder?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    I'm not sure on the French /grudge angle

    Bjsc speculated i believe that this was likely an incident that spiralled

    That's what it looks like , someone lost it here and smashed her face in

    So that wouldn't tie in with DTDP, the only way i could see him involved is if the intent was to have her murdered



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,372 ✭✭✭Deeec


    Well you would hope that's the situation!

    But the team is part of AGS and doing a good thorough investigation could highlight serious misconduct in AGS. They may have no interest in actually solving the case and this is just ' a keep the family happy and make it look like we are doing something exercise '.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    Yes that's a possibility

    I would hope a file will be submitted and we'll hear something from the dpp



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    One thing of note

    Nothing is being leaked afaik on bailey ?

    Suggests possibly they are building the case on him

    There was speculation they may leak stuff to paint him as the killer who got away



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 206 ✭✭Zola1000


    Ok that's possible fair that hitman is highly unlikely and I would totally agree. But let's say by association she was well-known and well connected with DTDP. Was it also said french citizens living close by were in drug trade..others were convicts on run. I know it's still very fanciful...but we don't know of threats within them circles against DTDP given they know how wealthy he was ..and maybe wasn't aware there would be threat to Sophie's life in such remote place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 344 ✭✭bjsc


    Just found this very interesting post from you on another thread. Given what you were saying about me would you care to comment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 206 ✭✭Zola1000


    DTDP didn't like the remote place on cork , he also didn't like some studio place she worked in throughout Paris that it was in one roughest areas. Success brings lots of enemies and the french living in area could have held grudges. Now base that against landowners , I might still say that weights heavier landowners dispute grudge etc. but these are avenues we need more information on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    It's possible the killer and motive is completely unknown to us and AGS and that's why the case is unsolved

    The case is riddled with unanswered questions



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 206 ✭✭Zola1000


    I totally agree. Our only remaining possibilities lies with how CCRT take the evidence and create the possibilities of how this murder happening into whole new report



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    Ya but all reports say it's focussed solely on bailey

    I can only assume that's correct although could be the review will just be shut down

    I can't see any new suspects being charged



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,587 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Not as different as you might think, possibly trying to get to the same destination by slightly different routes.

    Without evidence to narrow down the possibilities and help point in a particular direction, the further one extrapolates from a point the greater the number of possibilities.

    e.g. with the axe was it in its usual place before the killing or not, if it was who took it from there Sophie? her killer? someone else?, if Sophie why - self protection? confrontation? or some other reason? if self protection, against what/who/where? someone at her door? at the gate? at the pump?, someone she knew or a stranger?

    At each step the possibilities, unless pruned by evidence, multiply to quickly give an unmanagrable number of possibilities.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    If the axe was involved and indeed was taken

    If the confrontation only occured at the gate

    That would likely mean Sophie armed herself with an axe before going down to the gate . That to me is an unlikely scenario

    More likely the axe was picked up when a caller arrived at the door probably at nite

    All speculation



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,587 ✭✭✭FishOnABike




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,496 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    We don't know why Alfie was ruled out.

    It's not our busines to know, we have no right to know.

    We don't know about the cut, but possibly it happened before the murder and the Gardai were able to verify that.

    People are saying that the Gardai should have spent time looking into other avenues.

    But more than likely they did and found nothing, and Bailey was the stand out suspect.

    In some ways this case reminds me of the James Hanratty case in the UK from the 1960s.

    Hanratty was one of the last people hanged in the UK for murder and rape.

    He was convinced on weak circumstantial evidence.

    For years after his execution his family and others including politicians and people in public life argued his innocence.

    Eventually in 1997 a police inquiry deemed the verdict be overturned and referred to the Court of Appeal.

    Then in the early 2000s new DNA technology helped prove that Hanratty was guilty all along.

    So the police had it right back 40 years earlier.

    Now obviously it's very different but at the end of the day the police had it right no matter what other people said.

    It could very well be the case here.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,472 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    Yeah I mean whilst a number of avenues have been mentioned in this forum and other online discussions, repeated every year or so to the degree we’re just going over old ground, the fact remains that the real time to explore these avenues was at the start of the investigation - they jumped on Bailey, justifiably in my view, but they stayed there and hung up their boots, patting themselves on their backs that they had the right man.

    There was a neighbour whom she had difficulties with, some loner who knew her and committed suicide 3 months later stating they had done something terrible- and all of the other avenues mentioned which I won’t bother going back over.

    There may have been nothing of concern with these other avenues once investigated but really, we’ll never know now, and it does create a lot of doubt naturally enough, for armchair observers.

    Clearly there’s no evidence that is known publicly against Bailey that would bring about a prosecution -I imagine the current Garda investigation are keeping quiet on what they know- let’s hope if they insist on going at Bailey yet again, that they can justify their years of review work. Otherwise it will be a total disaster, a waste of time effort and money, and more importantly, it will yet again bring those other poorly investigated avenues or right back centre stage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,472 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    Motive to call to the house? Sorry but that’s total balderdash - there was a suggestion he went there with amorous attempt- with absolutely no basis other than the Gardai couldn’t think of any other reason- yet there was no evidence of sexual assault which leaves that theory in the realm of fantasy - Bailey had a violent history against partners, yes, but not a sexually violent history such as rape - so you can stop posting gibberish as so called factual statements - they’re as empty as any armchair detective theory.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 206 ✭✭Zola1000


    Yes this is very well posted and exactly the mantra of the entire case. Truly hope all their work isn't in vain..and that evidence they now have can bring us to place of more conclusion. I want to believe jn their work and IB is likely as any..we just need that knot of evidence tied up once and for all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,272 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    It was said she was looking for a companion to accompany her for the visit. She was only going for a short time so I would think she wasn't entirely comfortable visiting this time so not unusual to arm herself when disturbed in the dark? She was said to be fearless and feisty. It is also very strange that the book she was reading was opened at a page about death in a foreign place (at least reported to be).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,472 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    Have to say I don’t disagree in any way with what you’ve said - there’s a hell of lot more there worth investigating than there was with Bailey



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    Nah it's you talking rubbish

    If bailey is the killer he clearly had a motive to call to the house

    It's simple logic



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,496 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    there’s a hell of lot more there worth investigating than there was with Bailey

    Like what?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    Y'all be waiting for anything concrete on all these new leads and avenues being referenced

    The only new avenue today was DTDP who is unlikely as this was unlikely to be a planned murder as bjac stated

    Alfie is briefly back in contention also



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,472 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    I don’t think anyone on this thread says “Bailey didn’t do it”- or if they do say that they’re idiots - similarly people saying “Bailey is the best bet”, are again idiots as it’s totally devoid of any rational argument.

    There’s very flimsy so called evidence against Bailey - personally speaking the “briar” marks on his hands and arms which he said were Christmas trees and turkeys, is probably the most interesting piece of evidence and the one reason why I think he should remain a suspect - but I also believe the neighbour with the bandage on their hand should also have been a suspect until properly ruled out .

    And yeah good point- I want to believe in the work of the current investigators - but at this point it’s through the results they produce that they will be judged - I’d prefer if they admitted many mistakes were made throughout this investigation - I’d respect them a hell of a lot more if they did, and I think a lot of people would leave it there, knowing that some chances to catch the killer were missed and unlikely now that justice will ever be realised



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,587 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    In some ways this reminds me of the McBrearty case in Donegal. Harassment, bugging, garda malpractice, falsification of evidence..... at the end of the day the gardaí had it wrong no matter what other people said.

    It could very well be the case here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,737 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    Looked up the Hanratty case, very shocking.

    But there are also a considerable number of cases where a person convicted was found to be innocent when better technology allowed for eg DNA testing; try, Leonard Mack, for example.

    And that's not to mention tragic cases where a person was executed, and later found to be not guilty.

    Police are human, they aren't always right; and hunch is a very poor guide.

    I'm glad a new team are taking a second look at the whole business.

    And I'd still love to know why Mr Lyons was ruled out!

    And who removed those two pages from the police record - and why.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,472 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    Like wanting to wine and dine Sophie, a woman he never met before, at 3am ? Yeah right



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,472 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    Yeah I’ve mentioned that previously- hence the need for Gardai to put their hands up to the failings in this investigation



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,496 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    All of your talk of people being convicted and then found innocent ignores the fact that our prime suspect in this case.

    • Mislead the Gardai about his whereabouts the night of the murder.
    • Told multiple people he did it.
    • Had unexplained scratches and a cut on his forehead.
    • Had a history of violence towards women.
    • Was known to walk the roads late at night
    • Had a weird premonition that something bad would happen.
    • Had the physical attributes to inflict such violence with a block.
    • Had a bonfire that others have claimed was after the murder not weeks before it as he claims.

    When talking about Bailey people can't just ignore any of the above.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,472 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    Damning evidence - DPP must have been asleep that day -I mean “walking roads late at night”- he must have done it.



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