FEC committee & final report - **UPDATE post 442**

smmember20

Firearms User Representative Group [FURG]

Another Sports Coalition good luck to them, only real issue I see is that there is only one constituent organization (NASRPC) that represent target shooters and clubs who's sole purpose is the pursuit of target shooting, the majority of the other organizations mentioned are hunting organizations and while they use firearms in my view they really do not represent the day to day firearms user. As an example, NARGC this is constituted as a hunting organization, while members use shotguns for hunting and some rifles for vermin control they are fundamentally a a hunting organization as are the Deer Societies, deer management is their core focus and not firearms ownership.

I am afraid my view and my own view only is that they will go nowhere, love to see their constitution, rules membership criteria or can anyone join. For sure Justice and the minister have created the FEC and they will not listen to a ragged thrown together organization, again my personal view.

BSA International

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119332506#Comment_119332506

For your info.

NASRPC members are the clubs not the individual members in them.

NARGC has approx 28,000 individual members.

LOTS of these game & vermin shooters you refer to in NARGC and the deer shooters are also target shooters.

May I suggest you stop trying to imply any one organisation is more important than another. We've had enough of that BS.

Cass

The so called sports coalition, ran by Mr Paul Walsh, were the ones the pushed for caps, bans and other further restrictions on shooting sports. His presence on this committee is an anomaly considering his position when in charge of the so called coalition.

As for "ragged thrown together group" the so called coalition started out with two men, then included a rag tag group of fringe, or tentatively linked to shooting, groups (some only created to make small numbers seem larger) eventually ending up with the NASRPC as a member (albeit only for a short while).

I mention all this simply because your apparent dismissal of this new group seems very hypocritical considering the organisation you are comparing them to (in a seemingly derogatory way) was ran by the very man sitting the FEC now, however they have some of the largest, most established, shooting groups that do not represent a single purpose.

So given your previous defense of the so called coalition are you saying you hope this group is as good as the so called coalition or will be as ineffective as it was? If it's the former then I hope they are much better and if it's the latter then it would seem to contradict your previous defense of them which is simply confusing.

smmember20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119333875#Comment_119333875

I suppose what I am realistically saying is the Minister has set up the FEC and I don't see engagement with any group outside of it at the present time, it may seem like a good idea to pull together the aforementioned groups all be it the largest being NARGC they are still fundamentally a hunting organization and I am not bigging one over the other, I just can't see any potential to be effective, I did say it was my opinion and I still say that. Sorry if you are confused but the dynamic is with the FEC and Justice and the new organization has no standing, regardless of numbers, that's all I am saying

BSA International

I'm sure these groups have political connections. NARGC defo do (Seanad nominating body iirc which is a bit more clout than simply having the Minister in your constituency). I'm sure there will be some lobbying of other ministers & TD's who may be able to make sure this sham committee will be less of a hatchet job and an earner for a few chancers.

Cass

I agree with you on the point about the FEC's engagement, or potential engagement with any group. I said before that I believe it's too little and far too late (any group trying to engage with the Minister)

I understand the Minister sets the terms and any engagement with that office can only happen if there is agreement to discussion from both sides. However we had that already in the SSAI, FSAI, the FCP and while I know you are all sick hearing it, it needs repeating as some don't seem to be absorbing it. We pissed it away with infighting, egos, back stabbing, and personal agendas. Most all of the recent stuff coming from the so called coalition, but to be clear they did not start such carry on, it's been happening for decades, however they were at the helm when that particular ship finally hit the iceberg.

My "confusion" stems from your defense of the so called coalition previously and then your liking this new group to the coalition, essentially saying both are/will be pointless. Seems to contradict all previous defense of the so called coalition.

Grizzly 45

The emergence of FURG seems to be as a direct result of the people appointed to the FEC, the manner in which they were appointed and the obvious outcome of the committee based on those appointments. My only criticism is this committee has been coming for over two years and only ow have the shootings groups finally come together to combat it.

Agree 100%

I think they'll grandfather the few licences that were granted since Sept. 2015. Easier for them than court cases which would inevitably be taken.

NEVER underestimate the arrogance and stupidity of those in power to waste money that they will never be held accountable for mis spending in the "public interest". I think back to Oct 2015 in the Limerick Dist court were an excellent example of Einstein's definition of lunacy[Repeating the same mistake over and over and expecting a different outcome] was demonstrated by the then Chief Superintendent, by losing 6 application appeals one after the other at a cost of about 5 thousand Euros a pop under the dist court rules. This was after he lost over a dozen appeals in the last two years and had even had the Garda Ombudsman sicced on him for his tardiness in issuing licenses that he was mandated to do so by the court. You would think such incompetence would be censored or highlighted?Not in Ireland! He was promoted to head of the Garda traffic corps, and thankfully retired in 2019.

Same as we have seen with customs fighting a fellow boardsie here over a wooden stock being a firearm, and despite being told in legislation that it isnt.Still went to the HC and lost, as we taxpayers were footing the bill. Funny how many DC appeals for CF stuff went down dramatically once the Dist court rules on costs came in and the Limerick 2015 wins occurred?Once accountability for actions comes into play,its amazing how suddenly the pitch is levelled.

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119334275#Comment_119334275

Here is hoping. Best case scenario is recommendations, if any are made, come to nothing.

I think the subtlety with how this is playing out has been on the side of the FEC. How many people actually know this is happening? With other such ventures it was widely publicised by the various associations and groups but this has been very low key, almost under the table carry on.

Grizzly 45

As Brendan Behan famously said."The first item on the agenda of any Irish organisation is the split!" Shall we skip all the committee forming and rules and whatnot,and just get to that point so that those who actually want to save shooting in Ireland can do so by deeds and not being screwed again by the tyranny of small differences?

Grizzly 45

I think the subtlety with how this is playing out has been on the side of the FEC. How many people actually know this is happening? With other such ventures it was widely publicised by the various associations and groups but this has been very low-key, almost under-the-table carry-on.

This is partially I think our own fault.

What other media is there, apart from boards.ie to disseminate info to the common shooter in Ireland,if the groups decide to play it sthum and either hope it will go away or could be sorted out quietly behind the scenes, as one high-ranking member of one of our national operations mooted?

Not everyone is in a club, and not everyone who owns a gun looks for shooting info online either or knows we exist. Keep saying this, we need to embrace social media and cyber a lot more. I notice FURG hasn't got a FB page yet...Probably one of the 1st things any new group or biz sets up almost straight away these days.Its contradictory I know in that our shooting population is getting older,and our younger population is disheartened by not being able to find info online about the shooting scene. So the bottom line is; how do we get more info about situations like this to the average shooter? And the second question is; do they really give a damn to do anything about it? Going by the number of applicants who did know about it, not really.

I think the consensus is that FURG has come about not only because of the ministerial choice and mysterious way of choosing two virtual unknowns and an unknowing chairwoman of firearms-related matters just for the ol gender balance required these days.

But maybe because we need a big enough umbrella lobby group to either finance or political clout a high court judicial review of the minister's actions? That could put a stop to this entire process and cause the Minister to have to restart in a more open and transparent manner on how people are chosen. That could be the big stick on our side.

Cass

I'm not referring to social media, main stream media or any media. I mean associations informing their members by newsletter, at AGMs, at club events, during renewals, etc.

I realise most people remain ignorant of the political goings on, actually the vast majority, but this seems even more..... quiet.

garrettod

Hi,

I agree with Cass, I think this is being kept suspiciously quiet, leading me to believe that they are going to try and sneak though new legislation, under the radar.

I'm equally amazed that this new representative group isn't doing more, to help raise awareness. While I agree with Grizz about the need for a Facebook page, website etc, I'm also amazed that they haven't used the existing communication channels of their initial members - most of whom do have Facebook, mailing lists etc. In fact it seems crazy, that they are remaining so quiet, given there won't be much time to organise, and take action against the Minister and his so-called advisory committee.

This is all about numbers, in my view - the amount of votes, or / and, the amount of funds that can be raised, to take legal action against the Minister.

smmember20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119334337#Comment_119334337

Cass Absolutely agree with you, the original SC in its original format was a very effective group and was originally made up of a number of very focused associations, at the time it was effective, it benefited from the fact that optically it represented a large number of sport shooters, it also went through a number of Chairpersons, PW only being one and was for approx. 12 months, he was not the last and unfortunately as you nailed in your post the infighting and bickering, power play and personal agendas destroyed it as was with the SSAI, it should never have been dissolved and it was because of a power hunger small number of individuals who ultimately destroyed the lobby and funding source potential that the SSAI had.

So did I support the original SC, absolutely, do I recognize what was factually achieved, yes I have an appreciation for it, did I support the SC in its latter dying moments absolutely not and PW was not chairman at that time and had not been for at least 8 months, as I understand it he also resigned from the SC prior to it demise.

In the current climate will a new SC (call it what you like) work.......................absolutely not and if it does I will sell all my guns and give the money to charity.

Cass

Paul Walsh was chair (or whatever moniker you wish to attach to his position) and signed off on the proposals which sought to ban semi autos, ban 22lr pistols of less than a certain size, night time shooting, etc. His name is on the documents and until the website was scrubbed, was still available until a year or two ago for viewing. There are numerous threads on it, I have the screenshots and saved documents of the same.

My point above, and I said this previously, is that if he signed and sent these proposals what business has he on a committee when his views seem to align with the committee's and are completely oppositional to the goals of the shooting community.

His appointment alone is enough of a cause for the formation of FURG.

So my repeating of his actions while at the helm of the so called coalition is not to try and muddy the waters but to highlight the absolute relevance such views have given his position.

And for the record I've never supported the so called coalition. Ever. Your recollection of its inception is drastically at odds with the recorded version (from their own site on case you think the source is biased) and I'd urge you to review the threads I linked to very early on in this thread to read for yourself.

jb88

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119332390#Comment_119332390

This 2015 stuff is all gone years ago, stick a pin in it and forget about it. DONE - DEAD. (No legal changes implemented to CF SEMI auto rifle ownership)

This group will make non binding recommendations to another group who will maybe take onboard one or two recommendations.

As for banning or getting rid of CF semi auto's and others after the Chief has deemed you worthy and more importantly a model citizen who upholds the laws.

The courts are going to be full with, aha hold on anyone with a CF Semi auto pistol before the law changed got to keep theirs then why cant we.

There are well over 700 cf pistol holders vs the 100 or so CF Semi auto rifles registered in Ireland. If lads fought hard to get them, they are going to fight harder to hold onto them, legally there are lots of options. (Remember the Centre Fire pistol people dont have the magazine restrictions that .22 pistol holders do, nor CF SEMI AUTO rifle holders do when it comes to magazine capacity, they can have up to 20 rds I think in a mag, its 5 in a .22 pistol and 10 in a rifle for everyone else.

Taking a swipe at CF Semi auto rifles without taking a swipe at CF semi auto pistols arguably a much greater worry in my opinion.

The Gardai do this job along with the vetting procedures well for the most part, always exceptions ;-) we ve all been there.

Lets not make a mountain out of a molehill

Grizzly 45

As for banning or getting rid of CF semi auto's and others after the Chief has deemed you worthy and more importantly a model citizen who upholds the laws.

What happens if they change the core legislation and remove those registered pre 2015 as well to say CF semiautos are henceforth banned in the country?Ask the UK,NZ,Aus Canada and parts of the US as to how easy it can be done.This is a critical point that I think a lot of people are missing.This is a proposed root and branch overhaul according to the minister.But it seems people are only waking up to the fact about now that everything could be possibly up for grabs.

The courts are going to be full with, aha hold on anyone with a CF Semi auto pistol before the law changed got to keep theirs then why cant we.

See above to see the futility of that point. All the judge will say is ."Sorry it's THE LAW!" and these types of guns are now banned under Irish legislation.

There are well over 700 cf pistol holders vs the 100 or so CF Semi-auto rifles registered in Ireland. If lads fought hard to get them, they are going to fight harder to hold onto them, legally there are lots of options. (Remember the Centre Fire pistol people don't have the magazine restrictions that .22 pistol holders do, nor CF SEMI AUTO rifle holders do when it comes to magazine capacity, they can have up to 20 rds I think in a mag, its 5 in a .22 pistol and 10 in a rifle for everyone else.

Possibly...Maybe, in fact, its one of the other reasons the DOJ is also pushing this as they lost the paperwork as to how many CF SA rifles have been imported,and they aren't sure of the pre-2015 figures either. the 100 or so you refer to is the figure the DOJ is using POST-2015 for licensed and in dealers

So according to Browne's figures supplied to a Dail question in 2021 there were 3 new licensed SACF rifles here and "unlicensed"[ in dealers stock I assume ]14 grand total last year 17 rifles an in the period 2015/21 we are talking about 38 new licenses and 51 "unlicensed" bguns in the same time period. Grand total to be concerned about 89 guns in total. Going by the Depts own figures here.

Cf pistols is a lot lower now than what it was.That's 2015 +/- figure of CF owners.

Remember the Centre Fire pistol people dont have the magazine restrictions that .22 pistol holders do, nor CF SEMI AUTO rifle holders do when it comes to magazine capacity, they can have up to 20 rds I think in a mag, its 5 in a .22 pistol and 10 in a rifle for everyone else.

NOPE!!!. Draw your attention to the EU firearms directive of 2017 and the categories of magazines and to the legislation in 2019 that enacted it under the Irish firearms legislation, and where FUNI has been bollocked out enough times here for having the audacity for actually asking could Irish gun owners have an exemption to this under EU provided legislation to allow certain shooting sports and participants outside the ROI to do so. And being told PFO.

It's TEN ROUNDs MAX for ANY CF rifle or shotgun mag capacity now under EU law,which was literally transcribed into Irish legislation.

Its 20 ROUNDS MAX for any pistol or PDW type firearm under 50 cms that are centre fire.

As for the .22 mag capacity being 5/10 rounds. That's uniquely Irish and has no basis in any EU legislation.

In short, this means.If you put a 20-round mag in your CF semi-auto rifle or a 21-round extended mag in your pistol or even have POSSESSION of same at the same address. You are going to be royally screwed, as you now possess under EU legislation and Irish by default legislation a CAT A Prohibited firearm. Also, its no good blocking the mag in any shape or form either.your only option is cut the mag body in half to reduce the capacity to ten and re-mount the base plate somehow.As EU legislation specifies the mag body in this case. The amount of problems this particular DUMB bit of legislation has caused across the EU is unbelievable.

This is already becoming the Alps,it never was a molehill.

smmember20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119338329#Comment_119338329

Am I reading the SI correctly as the 10 round rifle mag capacity only applied to CF Semi Auto rifles

Banning of acquisition of large capacity magazines It is an offence to acquire:  A magazine for a centre fire semi-automatic handgun that can hold more than 20 rounds  A magazine for a centre fire semi-automatic rifle or shotgun that can hold more than 10 rounds. 

SI 420 of 2019!

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119338972#Comment_119338972

You have to read the EU Directive as well.

By adopting this directive in its entirety from the EU and not questioning,or caring to, properly and ramrodding this thru and fixating on a particular piece, in this case, for their agenda. The dept missed out or didn't care, on the fact that this legislation also applies to all other firearms types as well by default.

smmember20

So to all individuals who have any interest in the future of our shooting sports:

So much has been written about the potential negativity of the FEC, let every shooter with an interest make a submission to the committee on the future of shooting sports, instead of bickering about who said what when and who supports who and what lets put our energy into making appropriate submissions to FEC about the reality of legitimate firearms licensing in this country.

We have an enormous stockpile of issues that have been accumulated over the years and in particular related to the administration of firearms licensing by AGS, the lies, the waste of tax payers money the arrogance from this arm of the state who's clear objective is to obstruct and remove civilian firearms ownership.

So let see how good we are on the keyboards constructing comprehensive submissions on all aspects of concern related to firearms licensing and ownership.

Submissions can be made directly to the FEC secretariate as follows:

Aoife Byrne

Firearms Expert Committee Secretariat.

fec@justice.ie

jb88

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119350330#Comment_119350330

Dont waste your time with that.

Make your submissions directly to the Justice Committee, these groups will do nothing except quote your information in their submission.

garrettod

Just send a copy to both, and even a further copy to both Ministers (James and Helen)...

Grizzly 45

Put it i on paper as well.You can be sure Emails of these types will be diverted into the spam folder at these ministerial addresses. Physical letters are harder to ignore, and it shows that you made an individual effort rather than a cut& paste multiple emails.

Grizzly 45

Looks like the Firearms Expert Committee [FEC] was just another pro forma "Yeah we just have to do this, because...Democracy...But We've already made up our minds!" exercise. No idea what has been done so far in August, and October in this committee as these months' minutes are missing from the DOJ website.

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/8fa98-firearms-expert-committee/

Proposed legislation

BattleCorp

I wouldn't like to be a FF/FG/GP TD calling to my house in the near future canvassing.

Time for us to really put pressure on our TDs over this.

Cass

It's not a long bit of legislation, the bit that interests us, but its to the point and exactly what they have promised for the last 7 years.

A complete ban on anything issued after 18th Sept. 2015. Even if you applied before the cut off date, if the license was granted after the cut off date, it stands revoked.

Cass

The bill, which is more than just a recommendation from the working group as some have continually said and dismissed throughout this whole thing, is called the criminal justice miscellaneous provisions 2022.

Section 10 on pages 11 & 12 are what is of interest.

b83a22d.pdf

otmmyboy2

Absolutely ridiculous that they are taking the cutoff date from a minister's statement(NOT legislation) from 2015?!

How is that 7 years old bit of waffle legally defensible, let alone the basis for statute law?

Cass

The same was done with pistols in 2009. The act was in 2009 but the statement to the Dail was in November 2008. A much shorter time, but the same principle.

I checked then and it's completely legal. Once read into the Dail any future legislation is retrospective. There are some limitations on this but for the sake of our issues (semi autos) the point is moot.

Asus1

I don't have a semi-auto CF but do have a semi-auto shotgun so I'd assume they're next in line for the chopping block.

What was the reason for the ban on new semi-auto CF rifles because there wasn't as far as I know a huge amount of criminals robbing rifles and shooting each other as they already have enough guns to do that.

Is it just like the lead ban and they are just looking around for any old excuse even if the excuses are nonsense.But I think they know that there's no lost votes in this bill and arguing about the right to own a semi-auto CF in the media would be a huge waste of time and energy as we all know they'd rip into you.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119853776#Comment_119853776

You are safe enough there Asus. Semi autos are the next most common and favourite shotgun, next to O/Us, and as they are used by the largest, but most Dormont shooting organisation the IFA. It would be a brave minister to propose such to our agricultural community.

This appeared in 2015 after a statement by then Min Francis Fitzgerald, post the Dail public firearms enquiry, and had no rhyme or reason, and was never challenged either by the shooting organisations back then[no surprise either there!] The trouble was it was just put on the long finger by the PTB and never gave even a provisional date to be discussed or enacted. Hence folks went about licensing these without knowing when or if ever these would be banned. That particular chicken is now back in the roost!

It also leaves a lot of practical problems for any of the 38 post-2015 licensed owners. And the 78 in toto firearms in the state were imported according to the DOJ's own official figures.

How to dispose of them for one?