Excellent article on how important small landlords are and how screwing them over hasn't worked

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119336913#Comment_119336913

There is not a shortage of landlords. There is a shortage of housing. Two landlords, each renting out one house is not a better situation than one landlord renting out 10 houses. The number of landlords doesn't matter.

Flinty997

Take the rules of the RPZ. It encourages older properties to leave (as you can't rise the rent enough or upgrade them enough to make the outlay worth while) but yet they leave a gap that new tenancies can set any rent they like. Just as new LL enter and buy up entire blocks of estates and apartments. we knew from Berlin etc. that RPZ would increase rents. yet we implemented a very specific version of the RPZ to allow new LLs to set their rents. We know ultimately there was in Berlin back lash against properties owned by large corporate landlords.

I'm not saying they weren't also pandering to a populist vote. But there was lot of nuance to how it was done, and the nuance underneath was to make it also least impactful on large LLs.

At the end of the day as you say the outcome is the same. Its just business and people vote with their wallets.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337808#Comment_119337808

More Waffle

20k tenancies gone since 2016 and 12-14k landlords say different. Every property leaving in average is 250-300k in capital leaving the sector. That is 5-6 billion that has left the sector in the last 5-6 years that has not been replaced

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119339006#Comment_119339006

My post is completely correct.

I'm fed up with this topic.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119339089#Comment_119339089

I fed up with your waffling

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119339300#Comment_119339300

You're the only one waffling Bass. Your own emotional rants related to the topic do not constitute fact. I wish you the best with your rental endeavors.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119335126#Comment_119335126

The fact that they are leaving the market is one of the main discussion points in the thread?????

Whinging is a bit of an odd characterisation of stating a fact?

Do you think they are not leaving the market and its a sham or media fabrication?

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119335167#Comment_119335167

I agree with the first bit...being a private landlord is simply not viable so you have to leave it.....

I very much doubt large business interests are going to solve the problem or provide reasonable rents.....they are professional and they will be answerable to board members/shareholders etc

They will make every effort to keep supply tight, rents high etc imo and will have a lot more ability to bring pressure to bear in that direction....they too can sit on vacant units to keep supply tight with a goal of keeping the revenue generating capability/valuation and therefore ROI on paper high as that looks healthy on the balance sheet and can encourage investors.........if the **** really hits the fan and they stop playing games like above they can be forced to dump property en masse onto the market at a faster rate than a bunch of disparate private landlords which is not necessarily a good thing either.....not that that's a likelihood now given how attractive an investment our govt has made it for them relative to a lot of alternative investments out there now (overvalued tech stocks, low roi traditional safer instruments, riskier stuff they don't want or legally can't have on the balance sheet)

I for one wouldn't trust them to be handed a monopoly, now competition between private landlords encouraged by being able to reclaim their property in a reasonable timescale from non-paying tenants and recoup damages or properly blacklist repeat offenders that do significant damage without any tax breaks or a cohort of that type of landlord to compete would be a much healthier situation imo

But I have an ingrained distrust of big business I suppose.

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119339346#Comment_119339346

Maybe they're selling now the market is at the peak?

Sunny Disposition

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119339888#Comment_119339888

That the market is in a good place gives people the chance to get out of it, particularly for some who were freaked out about negative equity ten years ago.

But realistically many of them would keep renting out properties if it wasn't being made too difficult and risky. Spoke to another man last night who is selling his rental property, he was exactly the kind of landlord anyone would want, he had a tenant for years and could easily have got doubled the rent if he'd wanted. But she was leaving and he just doesn't want the hassle that goes with renting out property. His auctioneer told him there's loads of people doing the same thing as him, the market is strong, both for renting and selling, and they just don't think it's worth renting the houses if there's a way out of it.

Short sighted, populist moves against landlords have hurt tenants more than anyone. Not everyone is going to want to buy a house early in life, there is a need for rental properties. Landlords very often aren't in it to make excess profits, in a huge number of cases they just want the property to pay for itself, and take some capital appreciation for later in their lives. But now, even though rents are higher, they just find it far more difficult than even a few years ago and thousands have voted with their feet.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119339888#Comment_119339888

Many of these landlords have been providing a service for decades and always planned to get rent as a pension. No real plans to sell the property just leave it to their children later on. These people are selling up as the risk of inflation loss is more comforting then leaving an asset that the government is at least hinting they will force you to rent indefinitely and /or devaluing the market value of the property.

Very few landlords plan on capitol appreciation as the way to make money. It would be akin to a shop opening and hoping the value of the property rising to make money rather than selling good.

Maybe they are selling now as the properties rose so much but landlords are telling you they are leaving because of the legislation and the fear of new legislation. So maybe you should listen

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340218#Comment_119340218

What legislation has changed? Please enlighten me.

Why is he selling when Fianna Fail are going to give big tax breaks to the landlord in the budget?

spaceHopper

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330956#Comment_119330956

Small LL's tend to be a the lower and less expensive end of the scale, if they go and their property gets turned in a family home or private apartment. Their ex tenants who don't have the budget for 2000 a month have nowhere to go. It's going to be a big problem.

This isn't a greed problem, there will always be greedy people out there. It's the states job to balance that out. But they stopped building social housing and fell back on private landlords at the same time they encouraged investment funds in to the country and didn't create a new investment bank to replace Anglo and Irish Nationwide. So builders only source of funds and work is building for investment funds to be rented out.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340303#Comment_119340303

RPZ,LPT, PRSI etc... Then there was the threatened changes such as criminal charges for landlords.

If you know the budget already I am very impressed. The only thing I heard of was a bunch of schemes that don't help landlords. Can you enlighten me on what these great tax breaks that are coming?

DubCount

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340303#Comment_119340303

So - don't sell until we have a SF/PBP government that wont give tax breaks to landlords, but do sell when they get into power.

I guess there's logic in that.....

notAMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340303#Comment_119340303

45 pieces of rental legislation since 2008 alone.

Changes in tax law, mortgage interest used to be an expense, now it's limited. Corporate lets and REITS are taxed differently to individual suppliers. RPZs. RTB. Legislation changes in how , when and what needs to be registered.

The government is limited in their tools. All they can do is change or update legislation. So when the public clamours for solutions to a crisis, this is what they do. Lash out more and more pieces of legislation. That instability and flurry of new notions based on whoever drafts it causes uncertainty and frustration in service providers, who are trying to keep up.

It's without strategic direction.

And if the tax is finally harmonised in the budget in favour of smaller landlords, which I highly doubt, I'm not going to call that a tax break, I'd call it removing a crazy anomaly which has been damaging the market.

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340420#Comment_119340420

Amazing really that landlords want to run a risk free business and want to charge whatever rates they can get away with despite housing being something people can't choose to purchase or not.

This thread just makes you all come across like leeches, typical scummy landlords.

Wah wah I've only made 30k in capital gains from the last year alone, and that's before insane rents are counted. Poor landlords.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340460#Comment_119340460

See this is it. Deaf to the actual issues, ignorant of the actual costs, just wants to call people names.

If people could make money that easily they wouldn't just have one rental. Yet the majority do.

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340520#Comment_119340520

Why do they have any rental if they don't make money? 🤣

notAMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340460#Comment_119340460

Why did you quote my post for that rant?

You asked for the legislation examples and implied we were making it up. Examples provided.

I have no expectation of a risk free business. I would like a fair business. Crazy huh!

Which by the way, is the same as how I run other small businesses. I abide by the legislation, provide the product or service, customer buys it. I make a living, customer receives the service. Mutual benefit.

Your point seems to be that in rental supply, some customers expects the supplier to subsidize them. That it's somehow acceptable for the supplier to make a loss while the customer still gets the service, in some cases for free for years. How is that fair?

And then, SHOCK and HORROR , the suppliers close up shop and leave and you can't get any rental service anymore.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340460#Comment_119340460

Any chance you will tell us of the great things happening in the budget? Why do you think any landlord is in the business for capitol appreciation?

Can't see how landlords aren't take risks and worried about additional risks being added by the current government or the next. Ultimately it is the public that lose not the landlords. What do you want to happen? Currently the plans are creating more people to be homeless and getting worse daily. You seem to want this to continue as if landlords will just stick around when it is obvious they aren't

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340460#Comment_119340460

Who said LLs think it should be risk free? All investments have inherent risks as anyone who invested before the last crash knows all to well.

Rent rates are market driven, not just individual choice, just like investments in any other market, to think investors should be morally bound NOT to achieve their highest yield in any market is absurd. As has been pointed out to you many times, it is not the responsibility of LLs to provide purchasers with affordable housing.

You asked for the legislation, it was provided, you either don’t understand it, or you ignore it simply because it doesn’t fit your agenda. Sad.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340576#Comment_119340576

If rents were unaffordable they wouldn't keep going up.

timetogo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340576#Comment_119340576

Welcome to the point of this thread. Landlords are selling up.

Very few rental properties available and rents are going through the roof. But even with rents going through the roof the risk is not worth it.

E.g. in Swords, population of 40,000 people has 7 places to rent.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119339888#Comment_119339888

Too many selling to it just be at peak. This is a continuous exit since 2016. You would expect the sling spree to be tableting off at present but it is not.

Any investors even those in negative equity if the waited this long must have been comfortable with the investment. Exiting property has costs. Auctioneer and Solicitor will be 7-9k on a 350k property.

The other factor is capital gain at 33% will eat up a chunk of any return. A person that bought in the mid 90's for 50k will be giving revenue the bones of another 100k.

If you are in that long and the property is yielding 18k you should be staying put. Even mid/late noughties purchases would have repayments well under control.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340460#Comment_119340460

They do not require a risk free investment they require certainly in there investment. Look at RBB proposal to link median incomes. He knew it was unworkable, he knew it would and will never be possible to put in place it he still for political publicity reasons went ahead and proposed it.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.breakingnews.ie/amp/ireland/bill-that-would-link-rents-to-incomes-to-be-debated-in-dail-1334547.html

LL can no longer put rents up willy nilly. Many were caught in RPZ's with low and extremely low rents in place because historically a lot of smaller LL tended not to raise rents while a tenant was in place.

These LL can be er return to market rents unless they leave the property empty for 2 years. Some are doing that. Some are just say

''F@@k this for a game of soldiers I'm off''it interesting that RBB has a net worth of 1.5 million and an income from politics of probably bear 100k net.

Fol20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337808#Comment_119337808

This makes no sense.

There is a shortage of landlords and they go hand in hand. Lets say tomorrow the government build 200k new homes in 1 year. If landlords are leaving the market and no new landlords are entering the market, how will the 200k new homes help renters if they are all bought by owner occupiers. You need some landlords to stay in the market and some to also buy the new 200k homes so that the supply of rentals goes up.

The Student

Mods

For my sanity will you close this thread. Its like an road accident. You know you should not look at it but you can't help but look. The thread is now going in circles and posters are providing cogent answers and as the answers are not fitting their narrative they go off on a rant.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340793#Comment_119340793

It's not that difficult a concept. (Ignore the colouring/formatting in the below, It appears automatically)

Scenario A:
Jim owns one house which he wants to rent out. 
Pat owns one house which he want to rent out
Total: Two houses for rent.

Scenario B:
Mary owns ten houses which she wants to rent out.
Total: Ten houses for rent.

Can you get your head around the concept that in scenario A, despite there being more landlords relative to scenario B, that there are less rentals available?

it is not the number of landlords which is important but the number of houses/units which are available.

growleaves

@Donald Trump 'it is not the number of landlords which is important but the number of houses/units which are available.'

Conglomerates and corporate monopolies will squeeze people like they've never been squeezed and dictate conditions to tenants.

Corporate LLs could in time fix the supply issue, I'm sure they probably will, but forget about getting a good deal if you are Joe Tenant. Rents will plateau rather than drop.

"Our accountant in HQ in Houston cut funding for the communal living room area. We don't have any input into that here in the Dublin branch. There's nothing we can do. Sorry."

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340830#Comment_119340830

You need to 'Flag' a post on the thread or PM a relevant Mod if you want this request to be seen.