Excellent article on how important small landlords are and how screwing them over hasn't worked

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119335126#Comment_119335126

Most of us have made the decision to with stay put or exit. However the government and other entities now realise there is an issue. Properties for rent are a requirement for some workers. Younger workers in there 20's starting there careers do not want to buy property. Neither do students. Once again we will hear of stories in another few weeks of students unable to find accommodation in virtually every college in the country. We say nothing about the price.

Students looking for accomodation in Dublin will be looking at 300/ week, Galway and Cork 200+/ week and probably 12 month contracts

But there is obviously no problem. After all properties do not disappear.

Someone was having a laugh at me because I considered to rent our holiday home and now will not. The government was hoping to move Ukrainian refugees from student accommodation to holiday homes. It will not be happening.

There is cause and effect. Landlords leaving the sector obviously not an issue

The Student

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119335195#Comment_119335195

I know that I was being sarcastic. I am fully aware of the rental/property sector.

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119335222#Comment_119335222

Considering it was Irish Property Investors group with most of the properties already having tenants in place...doesn't make sense they want to buy to occupy.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119335277#Comment_119335277

Eh, they aren’t buying, they are ticking their interest, it’s Facebook, not an online auction site.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119335186#Comment_119335186

Very few LL's entering the market. The figures being quoted are net figures from the RTB.

The figures may actually hide how bad it is. In 2016 there was a percentage of LL's who were not register with the RTB. The percentage registered now will be away higher virtually all LL's and properties.

I think the figures are 12-13k LL gone and 20k tenancies less. Considering that you probably had a number of LL exiting the market who were never RTB registered a d then you had virtually all LL registering the net figures quoted by the RTB could be out by 50%

Claw Hammer

Many of the current landlords bought originally during the S23 phase and in most cases bbefore 2008. The RTB only started in 2005 and the full horrors of it were not apparent at that time. Pre 2008 most tenants were transient. They would buy themsleves in a few years or move to social housing. A landlord could terminate a tenancy with much bother so the rented property was fairly liquid, threw off a cash flow and a capital gain. Now it is a completely different story.

growleaves

'Someone was having a laugh at me because I considered to rent our holiday home and now will not.'

Lay off the booze would you.

The point is that if LLs don't have economic freedom they should make their case to the public and politicians properly instead of skulking on internet forums saying "I told you so!" when no one has anywhere to rent.

Vintners, farmers, teachers, railway unions (in England) can organise and make a case for themselves.

I am pro-small landlord and suspicious of corporates personally. The downsides of dealing with big business ought to be obvious.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119335683#Comment_119335683

Landlords have been vilified to the point, no one wants to raise their hand. Those other groups mostly haven't.

Its secondary income for most LLs, so its not a critical issue for most either.

How much hassle would people put up with for 10~15% of a raise. Many would choose to loose the 10% and have less hassle.

Sunny Disposition

The Government do know of the issues facing landlords, but they probably, sadly quite possibly correctly, feel it’d be toxic politically to give a break to landlords.

Dealing with them would actually help honest people in rental market, it’d be good for genuine tenants, not ones who ruin houses and don’t pay rent.

Flinty997

To deal with this properly the govt would have to have some sort of partnership arrangement, with less profits for less risk kinda deal.

But rather than do that they are just slapping in appeasement rules without much thought, and letting the dice fall as they may.

They've done very little to fix the housing crisis in general.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119336025#Comment_119336025

Publicans, bookmakers face vilification too. It doesn't stop vintners etc looking out for themselves.

Teachers unions, especially the ASTI, alienate people with their relentlessness. True to an extent of railway unions who cancel trains on strike days. When I lived in England I had to get taxis to work on days of wildcat strikes.

Granted there are good reasons to treat the LL business expediently as a part-time concern, second hand income etc.

But it is still rolling over.

With my unflattering (and maybe too harsh?) posts I am saying LLs should create a serious pushback if they are as upset as they seem to be.

Then again internet forums are for entertainment. We're all just shooting the breeze here.

It seems to me that the post-2008 world has shrunk the economic freedom of the small businessman.

DCC put small out-door food-stall operators out of business even while in-door food outlets were universally opened, to protect against covid which is mainly a danger indoors.

The Student

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119335683#Comment_119335683

Landlords have been vilified. I would say I issue parking fines or am a clamper quicker than I would say I am a landlord.

We have been portrayed as lazy fat cats and The State are only too happy for this narrative to continue.

The ironic part about this is the public believing everything they are being told.

Dav010

From my own perspective, I wouldn’t really have any interest in joining an association/union. Unlike the other professions which growleaves mentions and who have representative bodies, being a LL is not my main profession, my place of employment, nor my main source of income, so I am not motivated to the same extent as those listed . I suspect most small LLs are in a similar position, the Irish Property Owners Association already exists, but have little success nor hope of effecting change.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119335683#Comment_119335683

Most small LL have 1-2 properties. Some may have a few more but from the figures the lads exiting are the ones with 1-3 properties and mostly single rental property owners.

Larger owners work under the umbrella of the IPOA which is deeply vilified on social media and the press.

For most it's was either part of a pension income (similar to myself) or an investment. For all of them the money goes in after tax.

If it's a younger investor pension plan then now is an opportune time to exit if you are under pressure because of regulations and tenant risk.

You realise your investment and trickle that money into a standard pension over a number of years. It may also help to fund your children's education.

WTF would you go farting around setting up an organisation to lobby the government for to change the structure. There is other investment options no matter what the Warren Buffets we have on here think.

Time is money I may be semi retired but I am f@@ked if I spend 20-30 hours a week setting up an organisation to lobby government. In my case I am happy with my two properties and tenant at present if it become an issue one is very easy to sell. The other I can change to AerBnB

Fol20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119334388#Comment_119334388

I have to disagree with you here, stats dont back up your assertion that airbnb are causing it. Around 3k LL have been leaving annually for the past 5 years.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119336212#Comment_119336212

Small landlords are pushing back. they are leaving the market and housing renters to someone else. If and when conditions change maybe they will come back. When the IPOA tried to organise resistance to the ren cap they were told they were in breach of competition law. Vintnersx organised but they too are suffering.

taxi drivers have a federation yet their numbers are declining and there is a shortage of taxis.

Theres is a shortage of soldiers because conditions are **** for them

There is a shortage of taxi drivers because conditions are **** for them.

There is a shortage of teachers in Dublin because conditions are **** for them

There is a shortage of landlords because ?

Flinty997

Larger owners work under the umbrella of the IPOA

I have no links but I don't think that is true. I think the membership of the IPOA is only a few thousand which is a tiny % compared to I think 165k LLs. Its not representative of anything other than itself. It has in my opinion some odd opinions.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119336400#Comment_119336400

There's a list of these pet subjects people obsess over, AirBNB, Short Lettings, RPZ, Vacant housing, old people, fair deal etc. That have only a tiny impact of the main issue of supply and demand. They are just looking for a convenient scapegoat for what ever agenda they have.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119336985#Comment_119336985

In any organisation you have vested interests. If the organisation is around a little longtime(20+ years) you will have alot of active long term members. These will dictate policy within the organisation.

One of the reasons that unions struggle with younger workers is they generally pursue the interests of older long time active members.

Transfer that to an organisation representing private individuals and it three fold. It's a reason the IFA lost alot of its lobbying power. It pursued the vested interest by maintaining status quo's and it lost smaller farmer members to newer more active organisations. The IPOA is the same.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337003#Comment_119337003

One of the biggest issues solving supply is to get as many vacant houses occupied as possible. However present rules and regs are a serious disincentive to encouraging the renting if houses that will only be unoccupied for 1-3 years or will be sold in the medium term

timetogo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119336103#Comment_119336103

This is the bit I don't understand. To me, an admittedly ignorant person, it seems easy to fix. Rules covering the tenant and the landlord making it sensible for both parties should be easy to come up with.

The crap landlords give all landlords a bad name. Same with the crap tenants. Make life hard for both those categories and have reasonable rules for the good tenants and good landlords.

I know some people (as evidenced on on this thread) think all landlords are terrible. But let the grownups make some decent, enforcable rules that both sides can work with and you'd find people more open to being a landlord and this would have a knock on affect on rent prices and availability.

I looked into buying to rent years ago. The risk/reward was terrible at the time so I invested elsewhere and happy I did. Its only gotten worse since then.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337358#Comment_119337358

Well you either have to rent it long term/permanently or not rent it. They are the choices.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337342#Comment_119337342

The IFA has something like 70k members. There are something like 265k famers of which 52% are owners. So thats massively representative in terms of numbers. The IPOA something I'm guessing like 5k (unreliable and open to correction) which is not representative of 165k LLs at least in terms of numbers. I could be wrong.

Anyone know what the member ship of the IPOA is.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337422#Comment_119337422

OK. The point is what good is that to people who want to rent and there is no places to rent because landlords leave the market. If it meant to help tenants then it is doing the opposite

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337548#Comment_119337548

Oh I agree.

Even if you hate landlords there should be some consideration for the impact this has on tenants. But there isn't which suggests what driving this is not about housing people. Its about driving investment. Its an economic strategy not a social one.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337585#Comment_119337585

And then you go and fly to conspiracy theory. It is a populist vote grabbing nonsense that makes for bad policy. Think horses before zebras

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337477#Comment_119337477

It might get seem so but the IFA has a large cohort of older farmers who now are not as active in the association. It has lost hugely to other organizations. It might still hold sway but nowhere near the extent of 15 years ago

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337610#Comment_119337610

You're very quick to jump to conspiracy. 1+1=42 etc.

The tax system favor's large investment LLs, the RPZ rules favor large LL and indeed all the tenant/landlord obligations, bias towards the large economy of scale of large LL. There is nothing in any of this that favor's the small LL over a larger one. It can't be accidental coincidence that its all one way. Its simply an economic strategy to drive investment and thus growth into the country.

There are easier ways to garner the populist vote if that was the sole reason.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337642#Comment_119337642

Its still massive, and being massive has influence.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337683#Comment_119337683

I do agree the government are doing this but not intentionally wanting small landlords to leave. They, like many members of the public, beleived landlords would just put up with it and remain in the market. What is funny is how people go on about TDs being landlords and favouring themselves. RPZ, LPT, tax increases etc.. were all bad for small landlords but very popular with the public. I know how legislation gets formed and there is no grand planning like you think happening. Lots more knee jerk reaction and pandering.

I guess it doesn't matter what the motivation is the outcome is the same.