Excellent article on how important small landlords are and how screwing them over hasn't worked

MakersMark

Excellent article on RTE.

https://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/2022/0602/1302731-rental-crisis-ireland/

When Threshold is calling for 0 tax on rental income below 14k (like the current Rent a Room scheme but applied to all rent) you know something is seriously wrong.

86% of all landlords are small landlords.

50% of renters rent from small landlords.

7000 small landlords have left the market in 4 years.

Rate of small landlords selling up has almost tripled in 2 years.

44 separate pieces of legislation introduced since 2008, not one of which helps small landlords.

Looks like the chickens are home to roost.

hamburgham

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058248621/excellent-article-on-how-important-small-landlords-are-and-how-screwing-them-over-hasnt-worked

Thanks. Interesting.

Tombo2001

Its interesting = everyone knows we have a problem with housing availability. And yet society responds by vilifying those who supply housing. And politicians follow suit, naturally.

If there was a shortage of wheat would we be vilifying farmers. (Answer yes we probably would).

DubCount

Its a relatively balanced article, but I dont think you discuss "the flight of the small landlord", without even mentioning the process for evicting non-paying or overholding tenants. This is the elephant in the room, and it doesnt even get an acknowledgement. No changes to the taxation of Landlords will matter if this is not addressed.

As for the tenants in Sligo that featured, 70% odd is a massive hit. However, context of when the last time rent was reviewed, and what other properties in the area are renting for. I dont know Sligo well enough to know if 1500 per month for a 4 bed is cheap or expensive.

Finally, I think the "sex for rent" element is sensationalism. This is an unspeakable experience for the lady in question, and the landlord should be charged with something for that. However, this has been discussed on boards before, and it is a rare fringe event. Its not anything thats part of the general rental market, and detracts from the overall discussion of the topic.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058248621/excellent-article-on-how-important-small-landlords-are-and-how-screwing-them-over-hasnt-worked

44 separate pieces of legislation? It's no wonder many small landlords are confused and its only in the past year or so that rtb have started to provide templates and forms that landlords can use to comply with their legal obligations. Before that a landlord had to be divinely inspired and was expected to understand all the nuances of each new piece of legislation with zero help from the rtb who wouldn't give any information when contacted. Their response was always that they couldn't advise on the legislation even though they are the state agency with responsibility for overseeing everything to do with the residential rental sector, you couldn't make it up.

If a citizen or business contacted revenue with a query about tax rules they would get the information, same with DSP or WRC and many other state agencies. Citizens are entitled to information - unless they happen to be landlords it appears, while tenants can get information relevant to them from many different sources. Changes and new rules brought in with no explaination of how it would affect landlords, only tenants, even the language used on rtb website, citizens information and the dept of housing is clearly biased towards tenants. Very one-sided IMHO and i'm not a landlord.

It looks like more legislation may be on the way for owners of vacant property and those who rent short term. Who knows, more stick might work this time. Who would want to be a landlord, we seriously need to get over the hangups from the 1800's about evil landlords and innocent tenants, we need a system that's fair to both parties and ensures everyone keeps to the rules.

Gremlinertia

As a tenant myself i'm a big believer in the smaller landlord and have seen the difficulty my own one has trying to sort out forms for the rtb etc. If we lose the small landlords completely i fear that the larger companies will have an unofficial cartel arrangement, a frightening possibility

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156450#Comment_119156450

Are you exaggerating your victimhood just a tad?

Public bodies don't give professional advice. That's why we have lawyers, accountants, data protection experts and others plying their trades. Revenue won't give you professional advice based on your own scenario. They'll tell you what the rules say,and leave it to you to interpret them.

RTB is no different to most public bodies. They're not going to provide professionally qualified staff to sit in a call centre and give expert advice. No professional advisor could work like that.

Tow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156490#Comment_119156490

That is the Irish public sector for you, they take no responsibility, are hard to contact and don't give hard and clear advice. I take that back, there are sections like Revenue who believe it is better their customers have clear instructions, as getting things right first time is better than having to fix a mess.

handlemaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156454#Comment_119156454

Institutional investment companies will not invest outside the large urban areas. Towns and villages will always only have small time landlords

handlemaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156490#Comment_119156490

Revenue will give you a form to fill in leaflets with instructions etc. RTB has only started providing forms. I dont think the poster was implying the RTB are expected to come to your home and write out termination letters etc

what happened the properties of the landlords who left the market?

evaporated?

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156622#Comment_119156622

A considerable number are now in the shortlet/Airbnb sector, or have been sold.

I suspect the point you are hinting at, is that if a LL sells, someone gets an opportunity to buy a home, so that’s good news. But let’s hope you understand that the tenants of that property, and many other properties are not in a position to buy a home, and most likely will have difficulty finding another rental. You must also consider that though the house may be bought by a single person/couple, there may have been four unrelated people renting the house. So twice as many people are losing accommodation as are gaining it.

Of course I could be wrong, maybe you do think LLs knock down houses after they end tenancies, it’s ok Charles Incalculable Vigilante, they don’t.

mattser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156622#Comment_119156622

In my own case, first home for a young couple.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156490#Comment_119156490

Revenue don’t charge an annual fee..

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156622#Comment_119156622

Sold to professional large landlords who will charge as much as possible. Where as a small landlord will have some compassion when set rent reviews

this also Drives up property prices

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119157257#Comment_119157257

Really? Where can I get a refund on the very large annual fees they took off me last year?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156522#Comment_119156522

You seem to have missed the point. They don't provide advice, hard and clear or otherwise, because they're not supposed to provide advice. It is not one of their statutory functions. They're not funded to provide advice. Staff aren't trained to provide advice. It's a nonsensical suggestion to expect staff at the end of a phone to interpret complex legal situations and give 'hard and clear advice' over the phone to get landlords out of a messy situation. Those situations are resolved by tribunals, so you can't expect the staff member on the phone, getting half of a one-sided story to give hard and clear advice.

Revenue don't give advice on tax interpretation either. That's why there's a huge industry of tax lawyers, accountants and consultants out there to provide professional tax advice.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119157268#Comment_119157268

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119157465#Comment_119157465

Income tax isn’t an annual fee, it is a tax on income, if you don’t earn it, you don’t pay it. If you believe you overpaid, contact Revenue, they will advise you on how you can reclaim it.

I have received advice on a number of occasions from Revenue, including recently when I imported a machine from the US. I have also submitted enquires using their online portal and received advice on tax issues.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119157553#Comment_119157553

And yet

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156490#Comment_119156490

Did you read my post, I said information, not advice. And as for victimhood, haha, i'm not a landlord. Cop on to yourself.

Citizens are entitled to understand and get information about state services or ask questions of the relevant bodies without employing a professional.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119157625#Comment_119157625

Yes, I read your post carefully, including the bit where you complain about them not being able to give advise (sic).

Their response was always that they couldn't advise on the legislation even though they are the state agency with responsibility for overseeing everything to do with the residential rental sector, you couldn't make it up.

carfinder

For one of the biggest pedants on the site, that was one idiotic post Mr Renko - annual fee indeed 🙄

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119157625#Comment_119157625

Don’t go down the rabbit hole.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119157642#Comment_119157642

That was their response when asked for information. That they couldn't ADVISE on the legislation.

I contacted them recently to ask about the transition from part4 tenancies to indefinite duration. I know from reading the blurb that this is supposed to "happen over time" but there is no information on the website as to how that will happen. Information that is relevant to everyone in the rental market, not only landlords.

The staff may not be legally trained but the RTB are the body with responsibility and should provide information that affects any stakeholder in that sector.

mrslancaster

With regard to the landlord in sligo who increased the rent from €880 to €1500 per month, IMO, that is extortionate and is the type of thing that gives all landlords a bad name. Even if rent hadn't been increased for a long time, that amount would be a huge shock and very worrying for any tenant. Very few people could manage a jump like that.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119159206#Comment_119159206

What is market rate for a 4 bed house there?

Its a huge jump, but probably in example of why rent should be raised yearly, a LL who leaves the rent low for a long time then raises it to market rate gets slaughtered in the media. Another way of looking at it would have been that they benefited hugely from significantly below market rate rent for an extended period.

sandyxxx

It was the PRTB coming along with the €40 annual registration charge that done it for me, gave our tenants notice in March and emailed them to say as much....,it was a straw that broke the camels back and now good tenants are left picking over slim pickings for rentals,....it might have only been €40,but it was indicative of the constantly shifting paradigms that being a small landlord today has become!

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119157585#Comment_119157585

Why did you revenue an annual fee?

RTB, The RTB website provides easy access for our customers to information relating to residential tenancies

look at this guide: https://www.revenue.ie/en/self-assessment-and-self-employment/documents/form11-helpsheet.pdf

10pennymixup

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156622#Comment_119156622

I started selling up four years ago and my first to go was four studios with about 6 people which is now a computer training school.

My last two properties were sold in the last 7 months. with the first a family of 4 were replaced by a single parent first time buyer with one child coming from her parents house.

The other was a family of four replaced by a family of three.....from South America.

Sierra Oscar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156622#Comment_119156622

The majority of them are bought by couples, resulting in three and four bed homes that were previously used by 4 or more persons now being used by 2.

It's also evident in apartment complexes. Two bedroom rented apartments are being bought by a single couple whereby they were previously rented by two couples.

This shouldn't be hard to comprehend.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156612#Comment_119156612

The point is that if small investors abandon the business in the towns and villages, who will repl;ace them? In some small towns in holiday areas there is no long term rental market at all.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119159206#Comment_119159206

There are two sides to every story. That landlord might have been carrying negative equity for years, had rent that didn't cover the repayments, not to mid NPPR, LPT and every other charge. He might have been living on beanns and toast and now needs money to pay for his mother in a nursing home, for all anyone knows.