The "Munster can't possibly lose this" Leinster v Munster build up thread

Cookiemunster

The Ulster game will be Friday 3rd June at 7:35.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100529#Comment_119100529

It's on the TG4 player.

Red Silurian

I'm not sure whether to watch the match back or not, from my view at the stadium on Saturday it felt like we (Munster) were the stronger team but we made schoolboy mistakes and had too many head injuries... Nothing against Leinster - as they were very good from my biased viewpoint I hasten to add

Also there was some debate around us as to the yellow cards, was the Leinster one a deliberate knock-on (without a penalty try?) and Scannels one for collapsing the maul?

The beauty about Level 5 in that place

Burkie1203

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119102952#Comment_119102952

The Leinster YC was given for a knock on 60m from the try line. Not sure an argument can be made for a PT.

Scannell was for maul collapse.

Not sure what you mean by Mumster were the stronger team, but the basic errors were really poor and attacking patterns were very telegraphed and easy to defend.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119102973#Comment_119102973

I think he's referring to the one on the Leinster try line in the second half shortly before Leinster got their pen try? I think Munster took the 3 points.

It's kind of bizarre that he gave a yellow for a deliberate knock on on the opposition 22 in the first half, but then didn't give one for a deliberate knock on while defending their try line. If it was a pen (which he awarded) it should also have been a second Leinster yellow. I don't think there was any danger of a pen try there though.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119103012#Comment_119103012

are we talking about the ed byrne one?

cos that was very much the ball been thrown at him at very short range.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119103028#Comment_119103028

I can't remember who is was. But if a pen is given for a deliberate knock on on the try line it should be a yellow, with the possibility of a pen try. If the ball was thrown at him from short range a knock on should have been given, because that would make it not deliberate.

But the ref and TMO looked at the incident decided to stick with the pen, but said IIRC there was cover so no pen try or yellow. It should have been yellow if the deemed it a deliberate knock on or a scrum if seen to be accidental.

Probably wouldn't have made a lot difference to the game, but I though it was an odd decision.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119103028#Comment_119103028

No the McCarthy one. I think the logic was that there was that it didn’t prevent anything even though they were close to the line. The Russell one was a bigger one because it clearly stopped a big attacking play. Not sure how I feel about the outcome based nature of that but I suppose it makes sense.

The maul yellow was deserved and JOD was probably lucky it wasn’t him that saw the yellow for coming in at the side and splitting the mail the way he did.

Burkie1203

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119103012#Comment_119103012

He literally said "debate around the yellow cards"

RichieRich_89

Yeah. Rightly or wrongly they only seem to give yellow if a deliberate knock on stops a line break.

TRC10

The current interpretation around deliberate knock ons is silly and just rewards poor attacking play.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119103212#Comment_119103212

How so? Late passes, that would otherwise go to hand, are part of good attacking play, no?

(I would say tho, the yellows can look harsh in comparsion to some of the other things you see let go).

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119102973#Comment_119102973

Munster had a lot of good solid play and numerous times we were getting very excited only for the excitement to suddenly die down because of dropped balls

As Johnny Logan would say, what's another year?

Interested Observer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119102952#Comment_119102952

You think a penalty try should be given for an offence miles inside the Munster half? What?

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119103246#Comment_119103246

Not if the late pass isn't on. It's possible to delay a pass too much. Russell was trying to make a legit tackle and the Munster player just fucked it into his hand because he couldn't get the pass away in time and got rewarded with a penalty. Russell clearly wasn't trying to slap the ball down, just make a tackle.

The ones where a player flaps for the ball one handed when it's mid-flight I understand. But not the ones where it's in the tackle.

It's not a criticism of Munster, just the way that law is interpreted.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119103868#Comment_119103868

But the late pass was on; Munster had a 3 or 4-on-1 overlap. And Kendellen didn't deliberately "**** it into his hand". These things happen in split seconds, particularly with a blitz defence, and can be really marginal. Personally, I think it was one of those where Russell just naturally reacted and put his hand up to the ball in the tackle.

But overall I think it's reasonable that the benefit of the doubt goes to the attacking team. As I said tho, I accept that it can look harsh in comparison other incidents.

aloooof

Just had a quick look back at something I noticed, and I think a big turning point in the game was the loss of Jean Kleyn.

At the time he went off injured (48 mins), Munster had just gone 22-18 up, and Russell had just come back on from his yellow card. Within 3 mins, Leinster had scored a penalty-try from a maul, Scannell was carded and they scored another try during the sin-bin period.

It's not the first time it's happenend this season either, he went off injured early in the Connacht game, and Aki got a try at the back of a maul within 10 mins too.

He's so important to our maul D, with him on the field I think we've a far better chance of preventing the penalty-try and hence preventing the yellow card too. He's much maligned but he's having an excellent season.

Downlinz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119104752#Comment_119104752

He's much maligned? That's news to me. He's our most physical lock and a leader of the team and has been for years. It's not a surprise we'd struggle without him, hopefully Snyman being available next year will help with our reliance on Kleyn.

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119104752#Comment_119104752

Said the same thing when he went off, he was driving the team on. Big loss of momentum, and Jenkins made a few stupid errors then that made the contrast even more obvious.

Dubinusa

Kendellen acting the hard man? He's not very intimidating! Why was he so full of piss and vinegar?

Overall Munster were fairly good. You can see improvements in their play. Farrell was unreal, very good shift. Carberry struggled to steer them and oftentimes, they went side to side. Carberry really is a Krispy Kreme in defense. He's so poor it's amazing.

Speaking of poor, I thought Leinster were fairly poor kicking away possession in the later stages. HB was guilty of what I thought were a couple of poorly executed kicks. One was a garryowen, iirc. But overall he was grand. I've said it before that ROL can slot in anywhere across the backline. He really is the definition of a universal back. I'm sorry to see him leave.

But, quite a few young lads got to experience a better of an interpro. Great effort by them all. As far as hair goes, Leinster have locks to spare, Soroka sporting a Ukrainian afro and McKee with the flowing locks. Munster of course don't have Leinster's amazing hairstyles! Patterson was their best effort! Lol

RichieRich_89

You'd have to say Munster are perfect at the moment for the development of Irish players. They're good enough to be a stern test for the next generation of Leinster and Ireland stars, but not quite good enough to be able to win if Leinster perform as they can. They bring good physicality in the tackle and put pressure on the breakdown, but aren't quite clever enough in attack. It's a perfect stepping stone for these upcoming players and, as such, helps them grow. The likes of Osborne, Clarkson, McCarthy and Foley will be better for the experience.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119113219#Comment_119113219

You'd have to say Munster are perfect at the moment for the development of Irish players.

Ah jesus, Richie. Two days ago you were telling us in the Ireland thread that some of the young players would be better off moving to Leinster. Make up your mind, kid.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119113721#Comment_119113721

I expect he/she means a perfect test.

Not perfect to develop young players. Hopefully that changes

RichieRich_89

Yeah. I mean Munster are good for giving Leinster and future Ireland players "time under tension", as the saying goes. I thought it was a good game to watch and reasonably high quality. Munster played their part in making it that way. The Haley and Murray tries were the kind of tries you'd concede in a game you end up losing. I was thinking Munster might go on and win just after seeing those tries. But happily from a Leinster perspective Munster seem to psych themselves out in this fixture. So it's a good test and also a good way to build confidence for these up-and-coming players.

Since Munster don't really develop players for Ireland anyway - all their current or past homegrown Ireland regulars are over 30 - I think the way this fixture is is a pretty good situation for Leinster and Ireland as regards player development. I'm already wondering what emerging players we'll see in Leinster-Munster games next season to help them kick on. Milne? McKee? Soroka? The wingers currently focussing on 7s?

It'll be interesting to see whether Munster can actually develop some of their talent into international regulars. They've got some promising players, but at the same time Wycherley won't have it easy with Porter on the scene and Boyle in the pipeline. Similarly, I can see Casey coming under pressure from Doak. I'd like to see Leinster have enough quality players to monopolise international selection and keep these Munster players from becoming Ireland regulars. It's the best way to ensure domination in this fixture for the next decade.

cuttingtimber22

You are right. Just give the Leinster players green jerseys for part of the year. Would save a fortune in coaching costs.

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119095875#Comment_119095875

Watching this back, Osborne doesn't just pick a nice pass to a player running a good line. He runs an S shape to draw the defender out of position before making the pass. It's really nice play, and something O'Driscoll used to do a lot.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119116655#Comment_119116655

Goggin was completely lost there

arsebiscuits1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119116992#Comment_119116992

I think it was started by Ahern. Who was woeful here.

He reads that it's a screen play to Osborne so brushes past the dummy pod and then just stops.

He needs to be closing that space down. Osborne has 3 seconds on the ball here like. Ahern half goes towards him then loses connection with Wycherly who has to bite in on Osborne who in turn leaves Goggin in no mans land.

Ahern needs to push up, Wycherly can push off onto Frawley and Goggin can go soft on the outside.

Like Clarkson and Murphy offer no animation or attempt to check him. He needs to rush up hard here. Shut out the danger early

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119117152#Comment_119117152

not great by Ahern, but Frawley is always goggins man in this play once Byrne passes the ball. The 3 man pod runs through the munster line with essentially Ahern, Wycherly and Goggin marking two players, Osbourne and Frawley. Osbourne runs a great line to initially target wycherlys inside, but steps out at the last moment. at every moment though, Frawley is Goggins man. His first mistake is not to be linked to his inside enough, but once the pod is bypassed, the connection is good enough. Even when osbourne steps outside, Goggin is still man on Frawley. The fact Frawley can make that run without Goggin laying a hand on him is criminal. Theres enough numbers outside (3 on 3) that even if Frawley runs a dummy Goggin should still be taking him.

the review would have been very harsh

RichieRich_89

I'm not really seeing especially bad defending there. I think it was just good centre play by Osborne and Frawley.