The "Munster can't possibly lose this" Leinster v Munster build up thread

BoardsMember · 22-05-2022 10:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096263#Comment_119096263

Totally agree re Carbery.

Not sure why more is not made of Leamy moving from Leinster to Munster. He'll have absorbed a massive amount from being in the Leinster coaching team, and the young forwards coming through in Munster could really kick on with excellent coaching.

Prendergast has his work cut out for him. Munster have a long way to go to bring the attacking threat to where it needs to be, and I'm notnsure just coaching gets them there.

ironingbored · 22-05-2022 10:29am

Was in the south stand right between the sticks with a great view of how both teams attacked. The variation, creativity and options for Leinster were in stark contrast to Munster for the most part shoveling the ball from side to side. Very few decoys and easy to defend as the decoys never look like viable options. What Larkham has been doing is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.

Downlinz · 22-05-2022 10:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119095995#Comment_119095995

I'm not sure I'd agree the players are better now than Rassie's group. Rassie had the core of the team (POM, Murray, Earls, Kilcoyne, Stander, Conway, Zebo) all in their prime years and they're all undoubtedly declining due to age now (or retired). Beirne and DDA have been world class additions since then but that's probably it, you couldn't say that about anyone else.

It's debatable at least. I think we're in a very similar place in terms of squad but with an older age profile in the team leaders. And of course it's worth remembering that the proven and tested coaching duo of Rassie and Nienaber also failed to win anything with this team.

FrankGrimes · 22-05-2022 10:46am

Felt for Foley getting injured after playing well. Thought on his debut Ben Murphy’s cameo was quite impressive, speed to the ruck seemed swift, minimal fuss or delay, just whipped a lot of nippy passes with a lot of accuracy. Seemed composed too.

letsbefair · 22-05-2022 10:56am

Fantastic to re read the first page of this thread.

aloooof · 22-05-2022 10:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096324#Comment_119096324

Fair enough. But the option to pay him off was never a runner given the Covid situation.

aloooof · 22-05-2022 11:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096263#Comment_119096263

There’s definitely something to what you’re saying here TRC, but this post is all about the players.

The OP said game plan.

If we grant your premise that Munster look better with Healy at 10, it’s cos he’s got the attributes of a 10. It’s nothing to do with game plan.

Interested Observer · 22-05-2022 11:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096317#Comment_119096317

He's been in charge 5 years. He's coached a pile of internationals. Munster only have 2 now because of him as much as anyone.

aloooof · 22-05-2022 11:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096468#Comment_119096468

Which Munster players should be starting for Ireland so?

22-05-2022 11:48am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096516#Comment_119096516

This is a purely circular argument. He does a bad job and damages the careers of guys who, at some abstract point in time, might have had the potential to play for Ireland and then people turn around and say "well (those poorly coached) guys aren't good enough to play for Ireland."

There's no way to prove anyone had the potential to do better, of course, so it all drifts off into the hypothetical realm pretty quickly. If we'd signed Lancaster instead of van Grann, I'm fairly sure a few more guys would have made Irish squads. I'm genuinely delighted van Grann is heading off before he wastes any more of our collective time.

aloooof · 22-05-2022 12:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096565#Comment_119096565

Ok so, granting you all that, hypothetically, with better coaching, which players do you think should have more international caps?

22-05-2022 12:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096665#Comment_119096665

I'm not going to bother listing guys who's careers could have been hypothetically better, are you going to be able to argue counter to it that in fact whoever I list maximised their talent? It's pointless.

Do you think Munster looked well coached last night? Honestly?

aloooof · 22-05-2022 12:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096693#Comment_119096693

Do you think Munster looked well coached last night? Honestly?

I don’t believe I argued that they were. I think I’ve been saying on here for about 2 years that the skill set in the forwards isn’t where it needs to be. It still isn’t, but we have seen an improvement in that time.

In the same way we’ve seen an improvement in the game plan but still have posters telling us it’s the same. It’s not.

Downlinz · 22-05-2022 12:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096468#Comment_119096468

The POM generation has won nothing in 10 years under 4 different head coaches. I know it's a coping mechanism but it's ludicrous to put it all on the current coaches.

The players aren't good enough, the squad isn't deep enough and the winning culture and attitudes within the setup isn't what it once was. There's no trace of "Champion DNA" anywhere within Munster Rugby and hasn't been for a long time now.

22-05-2022 12:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096711#Comment_119096711

Ah come on, after 5 years of van Grann even a guy who wanted him kept on can't say we look well coached. It's down to him, ultimately, maybe not solely or even mainly but he carries the blame, imo.

aloooof · 22-05-2022 12:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096728#Comment_119096728

Again. I didn’t say we looked well coached.

Clegg · 22-05-2022 3:38pm

Blackrock College went to the wrong school.

22-05-2022 4:02pm

I wonder at this stage how many times I've put the same person on ignore.

razorblunt · 22-05-2022 4:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119095721#Comment_119095721

I don’t think that’s what happened , not that it matters as it was definitely a penalty try and yellow anyway. But there a few players between where the ball was and the try line. Scannell had fallen over them and deliberately took down whoever it was from Leinster with him. It may have fallen over the bodies itself if he hadn’t done that. Another silly decision from him. He should be nowhere near starting. His form has fallen off a cliff for far too long.

Clegg · 22-05-2022 5:28pm

I rewatched the game. One area that really stood out as an obvious Leinster superiority was how their ball carrying forwards took contact. On most offensive carries they would shift their feet and body position slightly in order to find a soft shoulder or slightly wider defensive gap. It was all about keeping the m Munster defence retreating.

A good example is Leinsters second try. Larmour made that excellent break from inside his 22 to the halfway line. Ed Byrne was the next player who carried. Rather than running straight at Josh Wycherley he shimmied just before contact and actually beat his man. He made a further 4/5 metres and put the Munster defence on the back foot. They were disorganised and allowed Osborne to carry laterally and put Frawley through a big gap.

Munster, on the other hand, were far too direct with their carries. Their forwards were very game and often ran onto the ball at pace. But they ran in straight lines and were hit dead on the gain line. There wasn't enough variation in the point of contact to keep Leinster moving backwards. It got especially bad in the second half where they went side to side with no penetration. Was just too easy for Leinster to defend.

Dubinusa · 22-05-2022 5:33pm

Lancaster signed with Leinster because Heaslip and Sexton reached out to him. While Leo and the branch were selling Leinster to him.

Munster on the other hand, allowed a departing coach to set up this landmine of a coaching mishap. Rassie suggested JVG and the union permitted this.

22-05-2022 7:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096742#Comment_119096742

Ok, so if we don't look well coached why on earth did you ever think van Grann deserved another 2 years?

aloooof · 22-05-2022 7:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119099147#Comment_119099147

To be clear, you’re asking if we don’t look well coached now why do I think he deserved another contract 3 years ago? Can you see the issue there? Unless something’s gotten lost in translation?

In any case, I’ve answered already why I felt he deserved a new contract 3 years ago. Results (2 European SF’s and 2 ProXX SF’s) and the new coaching ticket, which was generally considered a big upgrade.

aloooof · 22-05-2022 8:01pm

Ok, I’ve read back over the posts and it is just a misunderstanding. One poster suggested he should’ve been gone 3 years ago. I responded:

I think he deserved another 2 years with that coaching team.

Meaning, at the time 3 years ago, he deserved another 2 years, and explained my reasons. I think it’s pretty clear he doesn’t deserve another 2 years now.

22-05-2022 9:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119099336#Comment_119099336

It's genuinely possible I'm so annoyed over the abject failure of van Grann's tenure that i've lost the ability to read...

sprucemoose · 22-05-2022 10:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096263#Comment_119096263

JC was running crossfield most of the game too

molloyjh · 22-05-2022 11:37pm

Finally got a chance to watch it in full. To start with, Frank Murphy was fine. A couple of oddities but overall he was decent.

Leinster in the first 10 were excellent, and had some good periods after that. But it was noticeable how much we missed Frawley when he went off. That said I thought Harry Byrne went well overall. Didn’t control things as much as he needs to but played better than his opposite number IMO.

Other than that Clarkson showed up well in the loose, McCarthy was excellent and I look forward to seeing more from him. It was probably Bairds best performance in some time. The way we used him on restarts was really good. Osbourne looks very comfortable and ROL played well. Larmour was superb at times and is def sticking his hand up.

Lots said about Munster so far. But they just look like a side who are (a) poorly coached and (b) seriously lacking in attacking talent in the front five. Even the back row, who started well, faded as the game went on. I noticed Kendellan more for his attempts at starting handbags when the ball was dead than for anything else after what was an excellent opening 20 or so from him.

The skills seem to be there at least to a point. There were 2 periods off turnover where Munster played some really positive stuff and made progress. But it was unstructured play. Their phase play and overall shape was really poor. And some of their accuracy was well off at times too. Passes behind players, to the deck etc.

It must be very hard for Carbery in a system that seem to have no shape and is definitely missing ball playing forwards who can add some more options. I think it’s very hard to judge him on that set-up. I did think Murray looked sharp though and don’t get why he’s been getting grief from some quarters.

Another thing that jumped out was the rucks. Munster on a number of occasions piled bodies into rucks that Leinster weren’t contesting. At least 3 times they had 5 or so plus Murray to 0 Leinster players. What the f* is that about!?