How can we integrate Unionism into a possible United Ireland?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119169206#Comment_119169206

You are correct on both issues here. The Commonwealth is done after the death of the current head. And if it is to be revived it will be by Boris's idea that it should be a trade bloc to rival the EU. Therefore it would not be feasible to join and nowhere near a majority would wish to. It's appeasement for the sake of appeasement which is wrong and will only cause future problems.

The 'federated' nonsense is just the manifestation of belligerent Unionist and partitionist fears that the unthinkable may be about to happen. It will be the final plaintive call from a back to the wall Allister or Bryson.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119168925#Comment_119168925

that is because it is binary and a UI or a status quo are the only options.

there is nothing else exploring, we are to small to be a federated stated and we have enough governmental structures.

the common wealth offers nothing, we already trade with the nations out of it who have something to offer via the EU trade deals.

its that simple.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119169251#Comment_119169251

a federated state would octupple those supposed practical and financial difficulties that creating a UI will apparently bring dispite the running costs of NI being cut hugely by removing it from the UK.

it's absolute stupidity and it's not going to happen, ever.

it will be a UI or the status quo, those are the only 2 options on the table and that's it ultimately.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119170058#Comment_119170058

The position of belligerent exclusionary nationalism and equally the position of belligerent Unionism is that it is a binary choice as you say - speaks to an earlier point of me that they are more similar to each other than they are to those of us in the centre.

However, like the GFA agreement, any widely accepted solution will be neither of the binary options. Until the belligerents on both sides see that, there won't be any progress.

We are not too small to be a federated state, that nonsense has been clearly debunked. When there are independent States members of the EU which are smaller than Northern Ireland, it clearly is not too small.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119169478#Comment_119169478

It is not about the practical benefit, it is about the symbolism of inclusion of the British identity within a new State on this island - a shared island approach.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119169251#Comment_119169251

Anyone who thinks your idea is more partition and not worthy of looking into is looking through 'drunken green tinted spectacles'? Take off your bowler hat and put down your wee union jack fleg.

Unionists by definition don't want a UI. We all accept that. It is completely impossible to have a middle ground. We either have a UI or we don't. For your idea to work it would mean the people who want a UI being ignored and this federated state still having strong legal and constitutional ties to the UK or the Unionists wouldn't be happy either. Its a nonsense back door effort at partition 2.0 because you're actually worried about the political landscape changing.

My pal married a Protestant girl, her father is in the OO over in Scotland. I was at the wedding. Everyone got along great. People will always eventually overcome all the external bullshit.

Nationalists had partition and British rule forced upon them. Unionists will have the opportunity to vote regarding a UI. If it doesn't go their way, that's democracy for you. End of story.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119170115#Comment_119170115

It's appeasing for the sake of appeasing and a final desperate attempt to maintain partition.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119170109#Comment_119170109

belligerent exclusionary nationalism doesn't exist, it is a creation of belligerent unionism and partitionism.

it is a binary choice between a UI or the status quo, the GFA is clear on this and there are no other sollutions available, that is just a fact, a UI or the current situation is the only choice.

we are absolutely to small to be a federated state, all being a federated state would do is increase costs hugely for no benefit for struggling people.

northern ireland is not a state but a territory so the fact there are smaller independant states then a territory of ireland is irrelevant because northern ireland is not and never will be a state.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119170115#Comment_119170115

the british identity is included by default upon reunification.

the british identity is even recognised in the current state, hay there are plenty of british people living here with no issues what so ever.

so no, what joiniing the common wealth is really about is an attempt to lord it over the irish, but the thing is it ultimately isn't going to work because slowly but surely members are leaving it and that will increase once the queen passes away.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119168947#Comment_119168947

But if it isn't true that all unionists place utmost importance in being in the union, what do these unionists place utmost importance in ?

What makes them unionists in that case?

Is it that they just prefer to be ruled from London than Dublin?

Or that they some how trust London more than Dublin?

If that's the case what makes London so different from Dublin?

The political and legal systems are pretty much the same, the "home rule is Rome rule ' mantra is long out of date, there

I'm not asking these questions to antagonize, I'm just genuinely curious how someone can be a unionists without the union being important to them.

Christy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119170734#Comment_119170734

I mean they can be more worried about other things than the union but have a preference on it. The preference could be partially cultural, we have a long history on this island of politics being based on culture both North and south. I am sure there are people in Switzerland for instance who believe they should be part of the EU. Doesn't mean they would move. Ní does need money to stay afloat and London has a bigger tax base than Dublin.

However as with those Swiss they will have to accept that not everything in life will be perfect. I suspect many of that ilk are not massively happy that the DUP are the main unionist voice either.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119170175#Comment_119170175

It is not appeasing for the sake of appeasing.

It is about living up to the GFA which explicitly recognised the presence of two different identities on this island.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119170734#Comment_119170734

They're like anyone else, ie they're individuals. They have different priorities and attach differing weights to differing aspects of their identity. I doubt many of them could name the man William of Orange spent most of his reign dealing with or what he did when he was King of England. I love history so I can. I also couldn't give a crap about burning flags, Linfield FC or marching.

I would say that much of what makes them Unionists is cultural as opposed to political. In addition, most people worry about their day to day. More so in the case of pandemics and rising fuel and food prices. Ultimately, what matters most to people is their livelihoods. Not to everyone but to most.

As regards trusting London, I almost spat my dinner over my PC. No Unionist trusts London. They're loyal to their idea of England, ie a green and pleasant land of stout Protestants. Not to today's multicultural, dynamic state burdened under a belligerent English nationalist government. I'll spare you the tired old Edward Carson quote but it's only the current generation of decadent fools who trusted London and now they're getting their just desserts.

The political and legal systems are not the same. Come on. An unelected head of state with at least one potential paedophile running about. An unaccountable criminal running the government. A broken voting system designed for a two party state from centuries ago. Come on.

What I absolutely will not under any circumstances do is to vote either myself and/or anyone else into poorer financial circumstances for anyone else's nationalism. If I were to be living in NI in a few years and there's a border poll, I might vote for it if there's a reasonable sounding and well thought out plan to integrate NI into the Republic, ideally with EU support. I'm sick of the Brits and their nonsense but it wouldn't be right to make NI's people worse off as a result.

Also, I'd love this to be UI's flag:

I think it's the president's standard or something now but I think it's so much more beautiful than the tricolour.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119170765#Comment_119170765

Denying the aspiration to a UI is against the GFA. You present a Federation as a way to deny that and prolong partition and to appease those who are afraid of a democratic majority decision.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119170797#Comment_119170797

On the government being the same, I'm talking in general terms, two chamber, representative democracy, ceremonial head of state.

It's not like the UK has their system and Ireland has a system closer to that of France or the US.

But as you point out most people are only interested in the day to day and history, flags, etc etc mean nothing to them, and no one is going to vote to make themselves poorer.

So in that case why would things like flags, anthems, political structures etc have to change to accommodate unionists?

They can keep their culture, they can still fly union flags on private buildings, still have societies that reflects their culture, still celebrate July 12 in public.

I'd not be taking that away.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119170765#Comment_119170765

So should the North be taken out of the commonwealth now to respect people who don't wont to live in the commonwealth by the gfa?

The crown would be the freeholder owner of all of Ireland should we join the commonwealth.... no thanks. In some instances democracy will have to be respected.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119170765#Comment_119170765

So what? It recognises Nationalists yet it's still tied to the UK. You want it all one way and if the worst happens, a UI, you want to distort that into another Unionist biased section of the island, again ignoring the wishes of one community to appease the other. For someone who bangs on about inclusion and two communities, you are very one sided. It's not like Nationalists had equality over the glorious 100 years, yet when equality is at the door you want Nationalists to appease Unionists rather than, God forbid, a referendum not going as you'd like.

This is all really about the political landscape changing radically and **** all to do with Unionists, isn't it? Be honest. I think both sides of your border could do with a political shake up.

maccored

commonwealth? we want to go forwards, not backwards. what absolute truffle.

Wouldnt a vote not be the fairest way of deciding a UI? If you wanted a UI, you wouldn't want a vote anytime in the next 20 years, so people can their heads past get the stupid idea of the republic taking over northern ireland and not being able to 'afford' it. the country would have to be looked at like a brand new entity of its own - but basically why are we discussing how to 'integrate' unionism? A vote is the only answer, theres no begging an uninterested party along. majority rules as with every other vote

Its up to unionism if they want to agree with majority rule should such a vote favour a UI. If they didnt then sure they'd have every right to take up arms if they wanted. they just wouldnt have the british army around to do everything for them and supply them with guns and bend the laws to suit them.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119170857#Comment_119170857

I am not denying the aspiration to a UI, complete rubbish.

The GFA contains two exclusionary binary options, manna from heaven for the belligerent exclusionary nationalists (British or Irish) on either side. As I say, the solution won't be either of those binary options.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172554#Comment_119172554

ROFL...now you are claiming a Federation (That nobody of any substance wants) that prolongs partition is a 'solution'.

Christy42

Ni Unionists won't force the entirety of Ireland into the commonwealth any more than Nationalists will force the entirety of the UK to remain in the EU.

It is a non runner. In the event of a successful vote I can see the current arrangement being flipped and people in the 6 counties will keep the option of the UK passport. I can see even that going eventually though as I suspect the continued take up won't be massive. People will simply not identify the land as UK in the same way people identify it as Ireland. Granted links with the rest of Ireland will be closer than it ever was to the UK simply due to geography

jm08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119170952#Comment_119170952

Ireland's system is based on the French system - a republic. We have a written Constitution and we have a PR electoral system. None of our positions of power are heritary. The education system here is based on the French system. All of our former leaders (Daniel O'Connell etc) were educated in France. The tricolour mimics the French flag.

Watching some of the Jubilee stuff last weekend and seeing the public bowing and scraping to a 96 year old monarch and her children/grand children. Its just completely beyond me to understand how a 4 year old child should be on a balcony waving down at the family's subjecs who are cheering on enthusiastically! Its not in the culture of Irish people to actually think that they have betters where the class system is institutionalised in England.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119170797#Comment_119170797

Its a fukcing awful example of a flag.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172824#Comment_119172824

The Irish system of government is far closer to the UKs that it is to the French system with its President wielding a huge amount of power.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119170952#Comment_119170952

I never said anything had to change in terms of anthems and flags. If I were voting on a UI, those are nonsense relative to the actual political and economic issues on the table. I first saw that blue flag in one of my strategy games.

What you're ultimately doing is expanding Ireland's territory significantly and incorporating a truculent ethnic minority. This is going to cause problems no matter how you slice it. The place has a decades long history of violent conflict that is perilously close to being reignited.

You say that they can keep their culture but that may not be so easy. There are people where I'm from who can't fly a Union flag never mind anything else. There is an annual 12 July parade in Rossnowlagh, Co. Donegal in fairness but that's about it.

chopperbyrne

You can't integrate unionism into a United Ireland.

Unionists need to come to the realisation that Britain, and especially Parliament doesn't give a **** about them.

Any push towards a United Ireland is going to cause more violence.

An Independent Northern Ireland would be rejected by unionists too, so we just maintain the status quo.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119173257#Comment_119173257

You can adapt a united Ireland to cater for the British identity, a federated solution is one option, but there are others.

The refusal to even discuss them speaks a certain belligerence on the nationalist side.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172572#Comment_119172572

Its a desperate attempt to once again deny democracy to the 'people who don't vote how we'd like'. Its that transparent.

The geers and insults over shadow the dishonest claims of fair play.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119173257#Comment_119173257

Unionists are well aware of this and always have been. The problem is that by FPTP, voting for a Unionist party other than the incumbent DUP strengthens Nationalists. Therefore, Unionists usually vote DUP though you do see the odd win for the Alliance.

jm08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119173160#Comment_119173160

People both in Ireland and France are sovereign. They both have written Constitutions. Parliament is sovereign in the UK. And parliament can make it up as they go along. Both French and Irish Presidents are guarantors of the Constitution. There is absolutely no way proroguing parliament like Boris did would happen in either France or Ireland. Michael D. would have sent it back to Boris and it would never have got past the Council of State who could have sent it to the Supreme Court to check out if it was permitted. A private citizen had to take the case to the courts in the UK.

The set up of the civil service might be similarly structured, but I don't see much of a nod in the UK to Liberty, equality and fratermity, which is written into our Constitution.

mehico

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119173549#Comment_119173549

Agree. Why refuse to discuss any arrangement at this stage.

Also think a federated solution could be considered as a solution but don't think it should be based on the current border or existing provinces. There could be 3 to 4 regional assemblies for example that could each potentially represent 1.75 to 2 million people.