How can we integrate Unionism into a possible United Ireland?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119104939#Comment_119104939

If the irfu only used its own flag then that would be fine and what I would call a fair compromise - but it doesn’t.

I am not sure why Michelle ONeill would be representing ni. You are being a little presumptuous. Like the border poll, I would say it is 50/50 if MO will ever be first minister

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105260#Comment_119105260

MON is the democratically elected leader of the largest party in Stormont and therefore First Minister elect. The DUP are refusing to engage in the assembly and preventing a government forming. Therefore, if there was to be an NI representative at Irish rugby games currently there would be none.

Let's leave the rugby out of this. What is it about a potential UI that worries you so much? What as a person of the Brutish tradition worries you about it?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105260#Comment_119105260

She won't be FM because belligerent Unionism will not be democrats.

There is no truck gonna be given to those who won't be democrats in either NI or a UI. They have allies nowhere in the democratic world at the minute. That might have worked when you had a stronger Britain at your back but it won't any longer.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105483#Comment_119105483

The dup (if that’s who you mean) have clearly stated that they will support her to be first minister so not sure what you mean. I also believe democracy should be followed on this one.

why I say it is 50/50 is that I think it is 50/50 whether there will be an election again in 6 months. If the dup hold their nerve and don’t form a government then I am 90% sure they will be the biggest party

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105482#Comment_119105482

Tbh ‘worry’ is not a word I would use in relation to it.

If you think why you would not like roi to rejoin Uk then that may help you understand. Then on top of that, we would lose the massive financial support of GB. We would also leave a wonderfully diverse nation of 80 million people who is a big player on the world stage and join a much less diverse nation of 5 million, who is an also-ran. From a world power to the much-liked and neutral jolly-cracksters.

Take a look at say the British SPOTY and compare to Irish SPOTY as a wee example of the class and capacity difference.

thats just for starters.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105513#Comment_119105513

They are not being democrats and accepting the outcome of THIS election downcow. It's not the best out of three or an a lá carte system.

If they want to protest the protocol let them walk out of the parliament that signed and sealed it.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105528#Comment_119105528

Well at least you admit to being in need of handouts. Stating that is something to cherish is bizarre frankly. Manufacturing NI just released figures of a burgeoning trade as a result of the Protocol, proving what we always knew as nationalists, NI is well able to stand on it's own two feet and contribute just like the other regions of Ireland.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119104118#Comment_119104118

"How many of them will stick around?"

What a horrible notion that we will create a situation so untenable to people that they will have to be displaced from their homes that they have lived in for hundreds and hundreds of years.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105532#Comment_119105532

They are absolutely democrats. They stood on a mandate of not forming a government until these issues are sorted. They dare not go against such a clear mandate. You may not like it but the vast majority of the unionist community voted to not form a government while this inequality exists. That’s democracy

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105551#Comment_119105551

No idea what you mean about burgeoning trade?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105729#Comment_119105729

I firmly believe that democrats should take up seats and sort out these issues within the parliament so I oppose what the DUP are doing. However, I do empathise with this approach. It mirrors the refusal of SF to take up seats in Westminister, or previously their refusal to recognise the Free State parliament and take seats in the Dail. Sauce for the goose, etc.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105729#Comment_119105729

They shouted loudest about a stealth border poll while Allister was constantly warning about and Lundying others about a SF FM.

They ALSO have a track record I am sure you will try to deny of blocking democratic reforms and rights and voiciferously rejected the Agreement they now think should save them.

Democrats? Don't make me laugh.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105770#Comment_119105770

Ah, how novel.

It's all about sticking it to the Shinners.

Great to see partitionists snuggling up to their bedfellows and future allies AGAIN

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105803#Comment_119105803

That’s politics. The shinners done all they could to oppose British rule in ni, now the facilitate it.

Huge amounts I disagree with DUP on but I told a dup MLA yesterday that if they dare to ignore their mandate and go into government before we get equality and respect on this issue they will be far the worser for it. If they hold their nerve they will be the biggest party at the next election

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100399#Comment_119100399

Wow.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105953#Comment_119105953

So you think the DUP are in a winable position here?

I honestly cannot fathom how Unionists will continue to put their faith in the most strategically inept party these islands have ever seen.

Unionism is bleeding votes wholesale to the Alliance and you think that will reverse and go the other way?????

And so what if they are the biggest party? (the mask slips downcow) Is that all it is about?

They cannot get anything more than bluster out of the Tories who if they accede to DUP demands will BREAK an international agreement not fix it. They will be in a worse position if they plunge NI into the same Brexit fiasco the UK is experiencing. Which will only get worse if they take unilateral action.

What a shambolic approach and shitshow future belligerent Unionism has to offer.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105989#Comment_119105989

You told me for months on another thread that there will be no changes to the protocol only flexibilities, etc, etc, etc. You now seem to be contemplating a potential step down from your position. Your friends the shinners also seem a tad panicked. They have invited every single MP and Lord to a briefing tonight to try and keep them on message.

listen to mary-Lou on GMU this morning. Interviewer had her on the ropes as she tried to deflect his questions about the inequality of the protocol and her nonsense about it changing it damaging the gfa. He pointed out that it was simply about trading. It was another great listen. The narrative is changing over the last week and we’ll sf know it.

from every non unionist party wanting full implementation of the protocol, it is impossible to find anyone now prepared to say that.

I have to say well done to grass roots unionism on this one - wherever it goes. To bring all parties including the EU back to the negotiating table and change the narrative was no mean feat.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105513#Comment_119105513

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105729#Comment_119105729

The DUP are not being democratic - they are anything but! They are making the governing of NI conditional on them getting their way against the democratic mandate of the people of the UK, despite them previously championing that mandate.

The DUP wanted Brexit and got it despite what the voters of NI wanted - they followed the line that the will of the UK people as a whole was what mattered.

The UK government which the DUP supported for so long were elected on the basis of the TCA which includes the NIP - something that the government said was a brilliant deal with the EU.

The DUP now want Brext (against the will of the NI people). They also do not want the NIP (against the will of the NI people). They refuse to offer any alternatives or solutions that will square the circle they helped create.

The DUP are belligerent unionists and simply would rather see the place burn than have what they percieve as the enemy taking control. I can't see them as anything other than bigots who are giving a voice that is not representative of general NI society. Your use of the term "inequality" also suggests that unionists are the victims here - this is a wholly incorrect and misaligned view based on absolutely nothing.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106102#Comment_119106102

The Protocol is STILL there and will not be re-negotiated. That's the EU position.

Are you saying something different has happened? If so what? The Protocol has flexibility built in and that has been acted on, as you were told.

Never mind the Shinners...defend your own position for a change without finger pointing.

What has the shennanigans achieved only to isolate the UK and the DUP/TUV?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106105#Comment_119106105

Well mary-Lou couldn’t answer the equality question this morning. In fact she done what your are doing, continually want to focus on history.

the inequality is clear. I didn’t vote for brexit and yet your desire not to be upset by checks on Ireland is vitally important while my concerns are irrelevant. (Were)

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106105#Comment_119106105

The 'democrats' have no probs with a border in the Irish Sea when it comes to rights.

https://twitter.com/duponline/status/1528675670854881282

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106138#Comment_119106138

I'm not sure what you mean that I'm focusing on history especially when much of unionism is involved in celebrating some gay fella* from a few hundred years ago who won a battle.

If you mean that I'm looking backwards in terms of the NIP, etc then yes, of course I will. The DUP and the UK government own the Brexit & NIP problems in NI given that they wanted out of the EU. It is important not to forget that or pretend that it doesn't apply anymore to suit whatever narrative you're trying to follow.

If the inequality is clear, please feel free to describe it for me. Do it in list form and we can discuss - otherwise I'll continue to consider you as a fan of DUP belligerency.

As for checks, these were introduced as a result of Brexit severing the existing trust arrangements. The majority of people in NI are against Brexit and do not want any checks on this island. I along with the majority of people in RoI, do not want checks on this island. The British government do not want checks on this island. So what exactly is your point about them.

Lastly, I did not say that your concerns were irrelevant. But given the previous view held by DUP that the will of the majority should apply, why are they not continuing with that principle? What changed that this view should no longer apply and democracy should be put on hold until they as a minority get what they want?

* added purely to highlight the hypocrisy of thise that are vehemently against homosexuality but celebrate this particular man.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106138#Comment_119106138

There is no answer to the 'equality' question.

If the UK wants Brexit it cannot square the circle that presents viz a viz Ireland. So the answer is always going to be an equality because Brexit is not the desire of Ireland as a whole.

Unionism, which largely wanted Brexit has to bear the brunt of that equality, in fairness, it is only in an abstract way.. The majority who wish to remain aligned to the EU are being accommodated with some flexibilities built into the WA to recognise those abstract concerns of Unionists.

ZeroThreat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105528#Comment_119105528

When did these extra 13-14 million people arrive in the UK, or are you just upset that German has that population while mummy Britannia isn't top dog in this category?

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105528#Comment_119105528

So it's just the age old Unionist superiority complex that is under threat from an UI?

Joining an UI would afford unionism to a far far greater one, one of many more diverse cultures, sporting achievement and economic power. The EU.

Times are a changing Downcow, NI unionists are stuck in 1922. The rest of us are progressing.

My favourite part is the financial support. How could we have expected unionists to appreciate the opportunities from the Protocol when sucking on England's tit is what they desire. A group so stuck in the past, they have no ambition for the future, and they seemingly do not give a toss that their nation has been so badly treated in the union, it could not survive on its own. Colonialism by economics, like how Scotland can barely afford to leave even if it wants to.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105811#Comment_119105811

Not at all.

When Sinn Fein brought down Stormont over the Irish Languages Act, I said that it set a dangerous precedent and that it would be used by unionists in the future when it suited them.

Now that day has come to pass, it is entirely relevant to point the finger at where it started.

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106138#Comment_119106138

This inequality theme you are pushing is nonsense. If we want to talk about inequality and unfairness, how about this:

• The DUP campaigned for Brexit and the Northern Irish electorate voted against Brexit. Brexit was imposed on NI regardless.
• The DUP got what it wanted, Brexit, regardless of the democratic view in NI — and not being content with foisting its desires on an unwilling electorate they then decided to go further and participate in the political bolstering of a Hard Brexit stance, thus necessitating the logical outcome of that: the Protocol.
• The Protocol is therefore not being imposed unfairly against Unionists, it has been imposed unfairly against an electorate by the actions of the DUP. The DUP were the party who helped create the need for it.

The people who voted for Brexit or indeed those who continued to vote for the DUP thereafter, when the party was doing more to weaken Unionism than anything Sinn Fein could have ever dreamt of, must take intellectual and moral ownership of their mistakes instead of telling us how unfair and unequal it is that the Protocol is the result of them imposing their Brexit desires on the majority in NI.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119107382#Comment_119107382

Not for the first time you need to brush up on your onesided history. The 'precedent' had already been set:

The Assembly's suspension from October 2002 to May 2007 occurred when unionist parties withdrew from the Northern Ireland Executive after Sinn Féin's offices at Stormont were raided by police, 

There is no precedent for refusing to accept the results of a democratic election though since 1998. Whether that refusal is as many suspect, refusal to accept 2nd place or the majority of elected MLA's support for the Protocol.

jm08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119107382#Comment_119107382

And there I was thinking that Arlene's refusal to step aside while the RHI investigation was taking place brought Stormont down!

What kept it down was the DUP becoming queenmakers in Westminister. All the action was in London!