How can we integrate Unionism into a possible United Ireland?

Christy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119173776#Comment_119173776

NI uses a version of PR. I guess for parliamentary elections it might have FPTP but outside of the few kingmaker months no one will care who NI sends or doesn't send over to that.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119173995#Comment_119173995

It does for Stormont but not for Westminster.

I'm no constitutional expert but don't the two largest parties, one from each side share power? I suppose that they don't want to risk weakening the DUP. Or maybe they're not that engaged and they vote DUP because their mothers and fathers did...

PeaSea

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119174032#Comment_119174032

They vote DUP because fear is whipped up before every election in the form of "if you don't vote DUP, themmuns will <insert thing that will bring about the apocalypse here>", and the sheeple duly turn out to ensure the apocalypse thing doesn't happen. It has always been thus, and it's hard to see how it can be broken.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119174032#Comment_119174032

Tactical voting to ensure that the DUP will hold FM will no longer happen once SF take the FM post. Similarly, tactical voting to get a nationalist RM will also fall. The fact that nothing much changes as a result will dilute the effect of FM speculation, meaning more will vote for centre parties.

In fact, the next discussion re FM will be how does the Alliance get to take it and what constitutional changes are needed for that.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119173549#Comment_119173549

Why would this new republic encourage or need to encourage any identity. Why dont you leave people make thier own identity and celebrate what they want. For a person who thinks nationalism is bad why do you want a new jurisdiction to encourage anything nationalist when it does not need to.

Apart from a few instances where the state needs to get envolved like a national holiday or official language but why should it do anything but the bare minimum. Paddy's day would remain the national holiday as it is celebrated by both communities anyway and english and Irish and even ulster scots would be the official languages. But I dont see for a need at state level in a UI to encourage any identity.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119173840#Comment_119173840

Do we directly elect a President who wields executive powers in excess of any other Western leader? The French system is unusual in that power is balanced more towards the President than the Parliament, while ours is modelled more closely on the UKs, where all the power is in the lower house of the Parliament. In fact, our founders would have to be **** psychic to model our system on the French system, given that the French have had two different Republics since the foundation of Ireland 😂

So the answer is no. Case closed

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119173935#Comment_119173935

Ireland probably has the most centralised political system in Europe because that suits the lads down to the ground. Here's a federal system that might give joe sopa a bit more say in his life:

Five provinces, Ulster (9 counties), Munster, Connaught, Leinster, Dublin. Merge the powers of county councils and federate powers from the Dáil to allow stong self government for each region on non national matters, much like Stormont currently has.

Dáil based in midlands and much reduced in membership so you don't have fringe gimps with local platforms being elected, they can ply their trade at the provincial level. Seanad elected on national vote (not constituencies) and based in Dublin.

No recognition of political parties at any level, any funding is given directly to elected representatives. Pensions limited to a max amount and only paid at retirement age. Generous salary but benchmarked against national wage. Both of these enshrined in constitution so they can be changed only via referendum.

Large cities outside of Dublin have mayors elected (Belfast, Limerick, Cork) all candidates must be elected members of their regional Parliament

Problem is that there would be no cutting of civil service staff but loads would be added to the provincial systems, so it would be an even bigger civil service shitshow, duplication of services for jobs for the boys etc.

Come up with a website where registered voters can anonymously comment, vote, petition on proposed legislation and issues at their consituency, provincial and national level to replace the media deciding on polling and agenda setting.

Brucie Bonus

Giving everyone a vote and equal representation is all thats needed. We are too small to consider breaking up for a unionist enclave or Polish, Chinese etc. and there is absolutely no need other than to put a stay on a UI to placate a minority who's most popular party is happy to gamble with the economy for flag waving.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119174434#Comment_119174434

Because the GFA recognises that there are two identities sharing this island.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119174434#Comment_119174434

There are some who believe that only the identities that they chose to recognise are valid.

They will repudiate the aspirations of one while appeasing and validating the aspirations of another.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119183535#Comment_119183535

All the GFA does regarding identity is say that the irish state and the UK must offer citizenship to people who were born in the north even after a UI. That is the only thing they're obliged to do at state level regarding identity by the GFA The only state that can take away the British identity in a UI is the UK by withdring the right of citizenship for people born in the North. 25 years in to the GFA and irish language has no status in the north. Have the UK been breaking the GFA for the last 25 years by not encouraging the irish identity blanch? No because there is no obligation in the GFA to do such acts.

This is just your sectarian fantasy that a UI has to do anything to encourage any identity that live in Ireland.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119184441#Comment_119184441

Eh, sorry, you have just explained clearly how the GFA recognises that two identities share this island.

As for you calling it a sectarian fantasy to accept that two different identities - British and Irish - share this island, that is about as much anti-sectarian as you can get. There is a long road to travel for the exclusionary nationalists on both sides before we get to a better place for this island.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119185137#Comment_119185137

A UI encouraging identities at state level is sectarian by definition. A UI does not need to encourage any of the hundreds of identites here in Ireland whether it be the native irish identity or a foreign identity. Let people find thier own identity without the help of the state.

Stop using the GFA as an excuse to promote your sectarian ideology. A UI does not need to activly encourage any identity here and is not breaking the GFA if it doesn't. The only legal obligation by the GFA is for the irish state and UK to offer citzenship for people born in the north. Nothing more.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119185137#Comment_119185137

blanch, the only one blocking the sharing of this island is you.

That's if you know the meaning of 'sharing'.

Unionists are still being dragged into sharing a part of the island that was set up exclusively for them.

Grassey

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2022/06/10/bbc-decision-to-drop-live-belfast-twelfth-coverage-devoid-of-logic-orange-order/

The BBC is snubbing unionists now... Apparently...

“It is hard to accept this as anything other than a further snub to the wider Protestant, unionist and loyalist community and our culture.”

growleaves

'Arlene Fosters maiden name is Kelly. I doubt all of her blood originates from Britain even tho she may want you to believe it does.'

David Trimble looks like a Celtic pirate when he lets his red beard grow out.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119183581#Comment_119183581

Speak for yourself. You have proposed the relocation of one identity in the past.

The uncomfortable truth is that Ireland is no longer an island for the Irish. That reality is gone, a dream, a bad dream, an exclusionary nationalist dream.

Ireland is home to a British identity as well as an Irish identity. Any solution has to recognise that, and integrate it into the proposal. Nothing I have seen from the exclusionary Irish nationalists has addressed this.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119199083#Comment_119199083

there are no such thing as exclusionary irish nationalists.

the british identity is already integrated into ireland via the fact british people live here already.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119199083#Comment_119199083

I 'proposed' no such thing. That is an outright lie.

I 'proposed' helping those who wished to relocate themselves but unlike Arlene Foster could not afford to.

You as an exclusionary selfish partitionist (You'll ultimately exclude everyone but yourself) had no plan for those people who say they cannot live in a UI, you will ignore them, just like partitionists have always ignored those in the partitioned part of the country.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119199156#Comment_119199156

I do have a plan for them, it just doesn't marry with your vision of an exclusionary nationalist Irish island, which is more in common with the pure Aryan supremacist ideal than it is with real life in Ireland today.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119199139#Comment_119199139

Nonsense

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119199193#Comment_119199193

I responded to a NICRA poll where 18% of Unionists said they couldn't live in a UI (82% could BTW) I asked would you be willing to help them to move.

Your only response has been to lie about it and claim I was recommending ethnic cleansing. You have zero plans for those people. Except trying to claim that a solution is not to have a UI and to continue partition.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119199269#Comment_119199269

And you rejected my idea of a federal State which could deliver something they could accept, certainly a rejection rate of less than 18%, but you have continued with your fantasy idea of facilitated ethnic cleansing.

Get up the yard, Francie, you are no better than the belligerent unionists you deride, in fact, you are the mirror image.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119199302#Comment_119199302

I didn’t accept or reject anything…again, I said NOBODY of any substance has tabled your ‘solution’ and of course it is just a transparent foil that you use so you can avoid any conversation about your plan IF a UI happens.

Offering 18% a Federal solution after a UI is voted on is not an option. So what is your plan to help those who say they cannot live in a UI.

Admit it, you would just ignore them, true to form.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119199204#Comment_119199204

Green, white and gold? 🙄 🇮🇪

deravarra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119199644#Comment_119199644

Yup. Gold representing the lucky charms leprechauns which our american cousins want to see when they visit the Emerald Isle!

Christy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119199302#Comment_119199302

I mean no one has raised an issue with those from the current Northern Ireland continuing to have British passports. If that is exclusionary then the current legal situation is exclusionary. Ulster Scots can be a recognised language as well so you are getting more than Unionists ever offered Nationalists.

A federated state is just not a UI so it is a non runner.

deravarra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119199710#Comment_119199710

The only thing most Unionists ever offered Nationalists was a farewell on the journey south of the border.

I find it abhorrent that an occupying force could ever consider the natives to the area "foreign". But then again, that's what colonialism does. It affords a false sense of superiority to those who occupy.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119199193#Comment_119199193

Does your plan have any truck with anyone other than yourself like all your other pie-in-the-sky nonsense you pollute this thread and othes with?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119199710#Comment_119199710

One side wants a united Ireland, the other doesn't.

One side wants a United Kingdom, the other doesn't.

In those circumstances, all second-best options are worth a look.